Buying Advice Diesel smog emission stuff?

[Shenandoah MF1760]

Is this a big deal, or not? Headache, or not?

Well, depends.

It's all in how they approach dealing with the emissions. As the owner of a 6.4L Powerstroke which wasn't a bad design. But the way they added emissions controls (among other things) created a truly disastrous motor.

The point is if there is a successful history of running these tractors with the current emission controls then you'll likely be fine. If they're trying some new approach designed to squeeze more power (or whatever) out of the motor it might be best to let others prove the worthiness of the technology.

The saying, "No one ever said I wish I'd bought a smaller tractor" is generally true, but if you can do everything you want to accomplish with the smaller tractor there's no real reason to go bigger. Save your money and buy more attachments.

 

[MHarryE]

I only put about 200 hours on my Kubota M7-171 yearly. Into my 5th year no problem but then the DEF system failed. Dealer worked on it while still under warranty, down a half day, warranty and back working but first fault code happened 1 hour following their DEF header replacement. Turns out the DEF pump was bad but they didn't diagnose that until this year, year 6, and with a 5 year emissions warranty, Kubota stuck me with the $4k replacement cost even though the failure began and was documented (by my pictures of when the fault code appeared last year the day the tech finished replacing the DEF head in the tank. But 6 years, a repair, is it really bad? I don't like that they stuck me with it as I had the fault documented while under warranty but that's life.

My M5-111 is a 2021 model. Last winter I was in some really deep snow, on a hill, and a loader hose failed. Got that repaired in a few days (lots of snow to dig out because the hose was low) and when I started it, I had a DEF code. Contacted dealer and they sent info on where pins need to be checked for voltage - the DEF heater had faulted while sitting in the cold (normally it sat in a heated garage). I had to use my mini-excavator to dig around the tractor to get access to the connector at the bottom of the fuel/DEF tanks. When I took the connector off, powder from corrosion fell into my face. The sealed connector had not been properly connected in Japan so moisture got in and corroded every pin. Turns out the heater drew the most power so it was the first fault. Having years of experience that corroded connectors like this cannot be permanently taken care of by cleaning, I called the dealer and with pictures, said we have a problem. In this case no question. Since the harnesses are not serviced separately, the DEF pump needed to be replaced. Major $$$ all covered by Kubota.

So new tractors over 75 HP almost all have DEF. I am meticulous about the fluid I use and how I care for the DEF system. Despite that, the M7, having over 400 hours the year before, only had 120 hours last year due to downtime (fortunately my nephew has lots of old IH tractors so I could get work done) and this year we are in August and I still haven't reached 100 hours due to DEF problems. Once again 50 - 60 year old IH tractors to the rescue. Of course on those the only window in the cabs is the windshield. No worry about cab doors - long since in the junk. They've had many breakdowns over the years, handled by a guy 250 miles away who keeps old IH tractors going when he doesn't have anything better to do, but so low in capital that he can have a dozen of which maybe half work at any time.

Last Saturday I attended the estate auction for a local farmer. He had 3 older 4030 John Deeres (along with 4 other Deeres of various models). The secret to keeping going with older tractors is plenty of backups. Seven tractors for a one person cattle operation with many backups for the most commonly used model. His newest was a 2015 Deere 6105D, basic configuration of the 6105 and no DEF but with DPF. It brought $20k more than what I had on my list as projected sale price.

 

[2manyrocks]

It's a sad commentary on emissions when it forces reliance on 50-60 y/o tractors to continue operating.

 

[Shenandoah MF1760]

Turbocharging an L2501 so it produces 200 times as much pollution as a 33-39 horsepower, DPF equipped Kubota tractor should be a crime.

I'm curious as to the source of this statement. 200 times more (200x) or 200% more (2x or twice as much)?

The site What is a Turbo: Why Turbocharged Engines are Environmentally Friendly

Makes the argument that "Turbos are — contrary to what one might assume — green technologies."

So where does the counter-argument come from?

 

[Deleted member 371759]

LOL. Lots of opinions. One thing that is 100% not debatable is.. Complex diesel emissions have not in any way contributed to the longevity of a engine. They may have become less problematic but no one ever has said, man I cant believe how much more reliable these emissions regulations have made my tractor, truck or whatever. If I personally owned a emissions equipped diesel I would either sell it and buy a pre emission and if pre emission diesels were "banned" not own a diesel. Merica!! Land of nutjobs and useless opinions.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

2015 Kioti 7320. Not sure my exact hours but it's over 800. Runs fine and the regen is just an annoyance sometimes, because it will come on when I am done with a task and want to shut down, so I have to keep it running at 2000 rpm. I alway run the tractor at 2,000 rpm or higher unless I am getting out of it to do something on the ground. Usually I turn the throttle down then because of noise. If all you need is 25 hp then Your decision is easy. But if you need more, why would you try to make do with less?

 

[2manyrocks]

Reading MHarryE's post makes me not want to own any emissions tractor even though I just bought an MX5200.

 

[John_Mc]

I guess it is a matter of perspective and mine is colored by my days playing around with high performance engines. 10 to 15 horsepower was considered negligible, and even just enough within a margin of error to be considered insignificant. To put an addon on an engine that only gave you 15 more horsepower (if you could even reliably detect it) would be OK if it were a $100 intake or exhaust tweak. But if that same increase cost you $2,000+, well, that would be a real tough sell to anyone.

Percentages are like statistics, I guess. They can sound good or bad depending on the eyeglasses you look at them through.

10-15 HP on a high horsepower engine probably is insignificant. However, on a 25 HP engine, that's either a 40 or 60% increase. This is a significant and noticeable difference in the tractor's performance. I own a NH TC33D (33 HP). I have friends with TC29D (29 HP) and TC 25D tractors. These are the exact same tractors, except for the engine. I'm about 14% higher HP than the TC29D. THat 4 HP may not sound like much on paper, but it is noticeable in practice - enough so that I can tell the difference when brush hogging with a 5 ft mower. If I'm not in really tough conditions, there are times I would consider a 6 ft brush mower on my TC33D (but I do think the 5 foot is a much better match overall). Realistically speaking, I would not consider a 6' it on the TC29 at all. When running the TC25, it does OK with the 5' cutter most of the time, but that owner does say he wishes he had stepped up a level quite regularly. When I run it in what I would consider moderate conditions for my TC33, I often wonder if it should have a 4' brush hog on it. (Being a hydrostatic transmission, I just slow down a bit instead.) I definitely notice that 8 HP increase from the TC25D to the TC33D. It may not sound like much, but that's a 32% increase.

As someone else already noted: it takes a certain amount of HP to simply move your tractor over the ground, even when it's level ground. What you have above that amount is what is left over to climb hills, run a mower or drag a box blade, etc. To make up an example: lets say it takes 10 HP simply to move that 25 HP tractor at a steady speed over a level field at a given speed. (I'd bet it takes more than that, depending on the field conditions). This leaves you 15 HP to do any work in the field (run the mower, for example). IF you take the same tractor and put a larger 40 HP motor on it, you have doubled the amount of HP available to do something other than simply move the tractor.

 

[Dunno]

Buy the smaller tractor. With the money you saved go and buy a real workhorse like a USA made 62hp Ford 801 series. Best of both, especially when the electronics go out on the newer one.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP

So new tractors over 75 HP almost all have DEF. I am meticulous about the fluid I use and how I care for the DEF system. Despite that, the M7, having over 400 hours the year before, only had 120 hours last year due to downtime (fortunately my nephew has lots of old IH tractors so I could get work done) and this year we are in August and I still haven't reached 100 hours due to DEF problems. Once again 50 - 60 year old IH tractors to the rescue. Of course on those the only window in the cabs is the windshield. No worry about cab doors - long since in the junk. They've had many breakdowns over the years, handled by a guy 250 miles away who keeps old IH tractors going when he doesn't have anything better to do, but so low in capital that he can have a dozen of which maybe half work at any time.
SNIP

Harry, you posted quite a bit about DEF fluid here. 5030 has too. Maybe you all can help me out with some DEF questions.

What DEF fluid do you prefer? What is the difference between Blue (brand) DEF and the Blue brand Platinum Premium DEF?

I just tested the DEF in the RV with a refactometer. Although it has been sitting in the RV for about 3 years, the refractometer tested 32.5 - which I understand is what brand new DEF tests at.

Any info appreciated.
rScotty

rScotty