Is DEF that bad?

[2515R Dude]

Buy a branson or TYM and remove all this bs. Plenty of info how.
Too bad I did not know it before.

 

[WM75Guy]

Somebody that has one needs to weigh in if that model has to regen and any issues with the DEF system. If it is truly using DOC/EGR/SCR with DEF as shown on the website, there is no regen function. DOC and DPF are 2 separate and distinct processes. DPF requires a regen, DOC does not as it runs at a constant high temp to burn off the soot. DOC/EGR is what NH went with for the Workmaster series, DEF was not required as the series is not over 75HP. There is not even a mention of emissions procedures in the owner's manual nor are there any warning lights or buttons on the dash for emissions. There are some trouble codes in the service manual related to the EGR sensors. My solution to stay out of trouble is when using it I drive it like I stole it, 2000 rpms, which is PTO speed.

 

[Seven Gables]

I thought the E stood for the economy mode the PTO was able to use. Not a different line of tractor. Is that correct/incorrect?

Edit. I'm incorrect. E from M is the difference of a chassis and a lot of other stuff. Looks like I'm on the search again.

As the owner of both a 2018 5085E and a 2019 5115M I can tell you I wouldn’t be concerned at all about the stoutness of the 5085E’s build quality. Both share the same 4.5l engine which isn’t even breaking a sweat to make 85hp. The M just has the fuel delivery cranked up to make 115hp. Front axle and trunion pivot are virtually the same with the E axle rated at 5950lbs and M just over 6000lbs , both very stout. The biggest difference in the M’s heavier bare tractor weight that I can see is it’s heavier rear axle and 3 pt lift construction. However the E’s is still plenty robust. 5085E comes standard with 12 speed power shuttle, M gives you a 16 speed PS. Both can be ordered with same 540M loader, excellent HD loader with the global quick hitch. E has 16gpm flow to the rear remotes , M is around 19gpm I believe, either is plenty.
As far as def issues with either I haven’t had any and haven’t heard of any major issues.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

And it won’t pump tons of soot and other pollutants into the atmosphere as well as the 3306 in your dozer, either.
Its also noteworthy that a DPF is an exhaust after treatment system that is repairable and replaceable.
Given the choice, I’d rather not have one, too. However, the world of diesels changed over a decade ago and DPF or DEF systems are as common on a diesel engine as an alternator.

It traps them, then lights them up all at once later.

Again, pooping in a bag and saying you don't poop then dumping that bag later....

 

[Hay Dude]

It traps them, then lights them up all at once later.

Again, pooping in a bag and saying you don't poop then dumping that bag later....

I run 8 diesel engines, so I don’t need the tutorial and I understand how they work. I really dislike diesel after treatment systems. I’m not here to defend them. They decrease reliability. I also go out of my way to run diesels that are pre 2012 on the equipment side.
But there’s going to come a time when the older diesels have run their course and there won’t be many pre-emissions diesels left.

Best we can hope for is design improvements, or breakthroughs that are more reliable.

 

[Hay Dude]

I’m pretty sure the 3306 isn’t killing the environment. It actually runs pretty clean compared to a lot of old diesel. If it actually mattered that much they should have started with trains and boats and planes.

Yeah I don’t know why you feel the need to tell me that. I pretty sure one guys small diesel isn’t killing the environment, either. Now maybe a couple million running at the same time might have an affect, but even then I’m doubtful.
Currently I have 8 diesel engines and only one has an after treatment system.

I think the diesel emissions systems are a scam and a joke, too.

IMO, “screw the little guy” is why it’s on trucks and tractors and not ships, trains, etc.

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

I just hit 50,000 miles on the 2020 Ram. Its run harder in a month than most people run a truck in a year and no issues. Of course a sensor is going to fail someday, but there’s not much I can do about it.

 

[rockinbbar]

But I don’t make the rules, the EPA does and if you want newer equipment over 25HP, you’ll have to run with DEF/DPF.

This is where we are with things.

Not only did the govt mandate that systems that have not been refined and perfected be placed on all American consumer level diesel products, but the consumer has to not only pay for that crap, but pay for the very expensive replacement and repair cost of that crap. And pay the higher fuel costs of operating their mandated crap.

But again, it's a double standard. The biggest single operator of any type of equipment/vehicles not equipped with consumer mandated emissions crap is.....the U.S. Govt.

 

[Hay Dude]

This is where we are with things.

Not only did the govt mandate that systems that have not been refined and perfected be placed on all American consumer level diesel products, but the consumer has to not only pay for that crap, but pay for the very expensive replacement and repair cost of that crap. And pay the higher fuel costs of operating their mandated crap.

But again, it's a double standard. The biggest single operator of any type of equipment/vehicles not equipped with consumer mandated emissions crap is.....the U.S. Govt.

Screw the little guy, the taxpayer, just a guy trying to make a living.

 

[mikester]

Is DEF/DPF that bad?


5. Prone to failure.

The one that really counts in my books is #5. DEF and all its additional sensors and computer controls make the engine very complex meaning special expensive tools and software are required to service the equipment.

Added complexity means more things that can potentially go wrong. That also translates to potential higher operating costs.

If you are running a business you can't afford down time meaning you now need two machines, one to work and the other as back up. will You also have to deal with regen cycles and paying operators to sit around waiting for parked regens to complete. When the machine suddenly stops working you are now waiting for a tech to come and fix it on site or float it to the shop for diagnostics and repairs.

Manufacturers are moving towards the cellphone model of business where customers pay and arm and a leg for new tech, and when it stops working you throw it away and buy new again. Win - win scenario.

 

[rockinbbar]

The one that really counts in my books is #5. DEF and all its additional sensors and computer controls make the engine very complex meaning special expensive tools and software are required to service the equipment.

Added complexity means more things that can potentially go wrong. That also translates to potential higher operating costs.

If you are running a business you can't afford down time meaning you now need two machines, one to work and the other as back up. will You also have to deal with regen cycles and paying operators to sit around waiting for parked regens to complete. When the machine suddenly stops working you are now waiting for a tech to come and fix it on site or float it to the shop for diagnostics and repairs.

Manufacturers are moving towards the cellphone model of business where customers pay and arm and a leg for new tech, and when it stops working you throw it away and buy new again. Win - win scenario.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

But not all models have to stop to re-gen. Some do that on the go, and some allow you to delay re-gen until you are ready for it to happen.

Some tractors don't have a DPF at all, or DEF. I had a 2019 Mahindra 6075 with no DEF or DPF because the engine passed govt emissions tests without them. But, as always, there's a trade off. I think the Mahindra mCRD engines run hotter at more fuel consumption to burn off cleaner. I put a 1000 hours on that tractor and didn't have issues with the way it ran.