Thoughts on a pellet stove for a large shop

[newbury]

If my calculations are correct it would take about 175 gallons of propane to equal a ton of pellets. That would make for a little bit of savings. Natural gas on the other hand is a lot cheaper than propane. At the national average price of $9.50 per thousand cubic foot it would only cost about $150 to equal a ton of pellets.

For many of us natural gas is about as useful as nuclear fuel. If you don't have a pipe to your house you can't just go buy a drum of it.

 

[mx842]

Outdoor boiler with fan coil units inside ?

Central Boiler 50K Btu Fan Coil Unit, Heat Exchanger | Wood Furnace World

50k Btu fan coil unit includes housing, fan, heat exchanger coil and louvers. Btu range: 20k-50k Btu. Approximate dimensions: 16-1/4"x17"x13-1/4". Ships Fast!

www.woodfurnaceworld.com

I thought about outside boiler stoves when I first build my other shop. I even ran pipping to the outside halfway from the shop to my house but never put one in. I don't think a 50K heat exchanger would do the job in my shop. And good luck in getting 50K BTU's out of one of those. Radiant heat is another matter, as another posted, it takes a while to warm up the floor but once it gets up to temp it takes very little to maintain. I wish now I had torn out that old slab and starting all over because I loved that heat system.

 

[jyoutz]

It really depends on your expectations. For my last shop that was uninsulated sheet metal, I had a big barrel wood stove with a blower fan. When I planned to work in the shop, I would go build a fire about 30 minutes before starting work. It would get the shop toasty warm even in single digit temperatures. Of course, as soon as the fire burned out, the shop was cold again. That was fine for my uses because I didn’t store any freeze sensitive materials inside and only cared about heat when I was working there.

 

[5030]

In today's inflationary economy, no matter what you heat with it will cost more than previous heating seasons. NG included. We heat with propane in the house and also use a multifuel (pellet-corn stove) to offset the propane cost, but then I get my corn for free and 2 ton of corn and 2 ton of pellets lasts all winter for us.

I heat my shop with in floor PEX and a 40 gallon propane fired HWH and I keep the floor temp at 70. I use the multifuel stove in the shop to add to the warmth. 1 ton of pellets and 1 ton of corn lasts all winter out there.

I pre bought my propane for this year, glad I did as propane prices here are going up like a rocket ship. I own 3 500 gallon propane tanks and I'm starting this year with all 3 sitting at 85%.

I expect to use an additional 500 gallons this year which I pre bought this summer.

The house has a brand new Bryant Plus 95 condensing furnace in the basement as well.

 

[fatjay]

They only come in 40 pound bags, not 50. 50, 40 pound bags to a ton skid.

Been heating my machine and fab shop with a multi fuel (pellet and corn) stove for years now as well as the house. Same units in each and I own a large woodlot and I am always culling trees from storm damage and I give away all the saw logs as well as everything 3" in diameter. All the rest gets roasted in the burn pile.

Having said that, I do have PEX in floor heat in the shop as well because no biomass stove will run longer than maybe 2 days with refilling the hopper so if I'm not out there, the PEX in floor heat keeps things from getting too cold. Only have propane here and normally, 2 500 gallon bottles at 85% full, lasts the entire winter.

Don't expect any biomass stove to be able to heat a shop (unless it's very well insulated and mine is), to a toasty temp, not gonna happen with a biomass stove that outputs only 85K btu running wide open.

Mine will hold the temp in the shop (20 x 40) at a comfortable level but certainly not at a sweat temp.

40 vs 50 wouldn't make a difference for my 95lb 4'8" wife. Also the bags are floppy, which makes them harder to carry.

I seriously considered it for a while, i liked the idea of filling the hopper and just setting the temperature and letting it go. But being the only one to be able to load it was a real deal breaker for me.

 

[5030]

Actually my wife tends the one in the house, not me. I do clean it but far as filling it, I don't ever fill it.

What I have is... I have 4 large plastic trash cans on a skid (pallet) and when the last one is about 1/2 full, I tote the whole thing skid and all to the barn and I fill the cans in the barn. I take the trash can skid to the barn with the pallet forks on the tractor and return it to the area right in front of the steps going up on the back deck and my wife fills a 5 gallon bucket from the cans and fills the stove, I don't and never have.

Keep in mind that I also mix in dry corn as I dump in pellets into the cans as well. I mix the pellet / corn at a ratio of 3 parts pellets to one part corn. By doing that I don't have to deal with the corn clinkers that straight corn will produce. Basically, I do the mixing and filling of the cans and she fuels the stove.

In my shop, I have a single trash can that I fill at the same ratio because I don't consume as much out there as in the house.

I used to take a full ton skid and set it up on the deck and carry the bags in the house and fill it myself. Problem with that is, it the pellets get rained on outside with the overcover removed, the moisture finds it's way into the bags and ruins the pellets. All bags of pellets that I buy (I buy Michigan Hardwood Pellets), each 40 pound sack has a couple air holes in the top and rain water finds it's way in so I eliminated the issue and yes, either one of my tractors can easily lift a full ton skid up to deck height, no issue. Actually they can lift almost 2 tons.

Not buying any pellets this year because 2 years ago I did a bulk buy direct from Michigan Hardwood. I bought a full flat bed semi load, 44 pallets of pellets delivered to the farm and I still have 8 pallets left yet. I keep them inside the barn with the weatherproof overcovers intact and they are just as good as when I bought them 2 years ago plus buying in bulk and even with having them deliver them to the farm, they were pretty inexpensive than and extremely less expensive than they are today. Of course I had to unload all of them from the flat bed which was no issue either. I just had him pull into the drive next to the barn and I offloaded the semi with one of my tractors and the pallet forks.

The empty plastic sacks as well as the sacks I get my corn in either get burned in the ever present burn pile or go out with the trash.

I get my corn from the seed operation down the road for free. All I have to do is trundle down the road with the tractor and pick it up and it too comes on skids. I don't grow corn, never have but I have an ongoing source for it and it's free. They much rather I take it than them having to pay a tipping fee at the local landfill because the corn I burn is off grade seed corn that won't pass the customary yield test of 98% germination.

I realize that not everyone has the source I do, but I take full advantage of it and I need to go down the road and haul back 5 skids of off grade corn soon as it's sitting in the warehouse waiting for me to pick up.

 

[D&D]

I thought about outside boiler stoves when I first build my other shop. I even ran pipping to the outside halfway from the shop to my house but never put one in. I don't think a 50K heat exchanger would do the job in my shop. And good luck in getting 50K BTU's out of one of those. Radiant heat is another matter, as another posted, it takes a while to warm up the floor but once it gets up to temp it takes very little to maintain. I wish now I had torn out that old slab and starting all over because I loved that heat system.

Once you have hot water, you could use one (or more) in each area simply by teeing the lines. Of course you could get fancy and zone control them. Solves the heat problem and keeps the firebox out of the shop.

 

[doneill127]

Here’s a comparison for the the various heating costs in NH. I have an addition that is heated with electric resistance and natural gas is unavailable so pellets stove was a no brainer. Fuel costs vary by region so you might have to adjust.

NH Fuel Prices

Average Fuel Prices in New Hampshire Note that the prices the New Hampshire Department of Energy publishes are statewide sample averages and therefore might be different than your local price. For more information see below. Petroleum Fuels Current Averages – October 2, 2023 Updated weekly from...

www.energy.nh.gov

 

[mx842]

Once you have hot water, you could use one (or more) in each area simply by teeing the lines. Of course you could get fancy and zone control them. Solves the heat problem and keeps the firebox out of the shop.

I do like the idea of not having to deal with all the trash that a wood stove creates. In my old shop I modified my old stove and extended the loading door through the wall in the shop to the outside where I built a lean to with a roof over it. I made that space big enough so that I could also keep about a weeks supply of dry wood in there in case the weather got really bad. That really helped especially during an ice or snowstorm. It really helped with the dust you get when opening and closing the feed door.

 

[etpm]

Keep in mind, there are three was to transfer heat.
Convection, conduction, and radiation.

Don't show us your blind spot.

Radiant heat may take longer to warm up, but it also takes less energy to maintain that same output. I can heat my shop with 70* water all winter and have everything inside 60*. I can open the doors for an hour and only drop a degree.

Why does radiant heat take less energy to maintain the same output? Please explain.
Eric

 

[Williy]

If you want a wood burner that will last a couple of days get a
150 or 175 gal fuel tank put a smoke stack on the back top and
a door on the other end you can put logs in and it should last for
3 or 4 days build a small building on the side of your shop cut a
hole in the side of your shop put a fan in it and cut a hole in the
lower section for the return air piece a cake!!!

willy

 

[Snobdds]

Why does radiant heat take less energy to maintain the same output? Please explain.
Eric

Radiant heats the objects in the room, not the air. Every thing inside turns into a heat sink. Once everything is to temperature, you only have to maintain it which is very economical. You aren't cycling the thermal mass very much.

Convection heat needs to be above body temperature to not have a wind chill. So it has to blow hot for awhile, but not too long because nobody is comfortable at body temperature conditions. So it cycles more with longer duration causing inefficiencies.

 

[MattB4]

Radiant heats the objects in the room, not the air. Every thing inside turns into a heat sink. Once everything is to temperature, you only have to maintain it which is very economical. You aren't cycling the thermal mass very much.

Convection heat needs to be above body temperature to not have a wind chill. So it has to blow hot for awhile, but not too long because nobody is comfortable at body temperature conditions. So it cycles more with longer duration causing inefficiencies.

Your explanation sounds rational but it is wrong. Heat flows from hot to cold. To maintain it requires a set amount of BTU depending on the flow rate from the Delta T. You can not use less input heat to maintain the same heat in a space.*

Comfort level for the body is a different subject. Since the body responds based on factors such as internal heat generation and ability to cool. People feel more comfortable at a certain constant temperature and humidity. Events such as running fans can make you feel colder due to increased heat transfer.

All you are doing with a radiant ground heating is to even out the heat cycle versus a blown heat arrangement. It all adds up to the same BTUS if the room temperature is the same.

* Raising temperature up to a set level can be done quicker with a higher rate of BTU's input and then backed off once temperature is reached. Like boiling water in a pot can happen quicker with if you have a high heat source. Once boiling that heat can be turned down so that the water maintains temperature.

 

[ultrarunner]

My shop has a double 55 gallon barrel heater that the previous owner used for some trash also.

It worked well 20 years ago before the barrels and chimney disintegrated from rust… no idea how old it is.

The cast doors and fittings are in good shape.

At one time the kits were widely available but don’t see them anymore…

 

[mx842]

Why does radiant heat take less energy to maintain the same output? Please explain.
Eric

Because once you get a 70 yard slab of concrete up to temperature it takes so long for it to cool off especially if it is well insulated on the bottom and sides. By nature it will take a couple days to get to the slab up to temp but once it is there it stays that way with very little heat needed to maintain. As someone else mentioned, once it get up to temp, on a 20 degree day I could open both big doors and leave them open for a half hour or more and when you close them it's still warm and toasty in the building. You have to remember you are not only heating the floor but you are slowly heating up everything else in the building and that is a lot of mass to hold a lot of heat.

 

[ultrarunner]

This is why masonry stoves are so popular in the alpine countries.

I designed one for the cabin and it is fantastic... but does not fit easily into some modern lifestyles.

Example is when friends came to stay for vacation and said crank up the heater... my response is that will take hours plus someone needs to be here to close the airtight door when all turns to glowing coals.

Once to temp they are fired all winter... typically a morning firing and with sub temps add evening firing.

Safe, Silent, Efficient, Clean etc...

 

[etpm]

Radiant heats the objects in the room, not the air. Every thing inside turns into a heat sink. Once everything is to temperature, you only have to maintain it which is very economical. You aren't cycling the thermal mass very much.

Convection heat needs to be above body temperature to not have a wind chill. So it has to blow hot for awhile, but not too long because nobody is comfortable at body temperature conditions. So it cycles more with longer duration causing inefficiencies.

You said it takes less energy for the same output. That isn't correct.
Eric

 

[deserteagle71]

My shop has a double 55 gallon barrel heater that the previous owner used for some trash also.

It worked well 20 years ago before the barrels and chimney disintegrated from rust… no idea how old it is.

The cast doors and fittings are in good shape.

At one time the kits were widely available but don’t see them anymore…

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/us-stove-wood-stove-barrel-add-on-kit

 

[ultrarunner]

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/us-stove-wood-stove-barrel-add-on-kit

Yep… that’s the one but the fine print says it all…

This product cannot be shipped to CA,CO,OR,UT,WA

West Coast Sweep as they say…

 

[Snobdds]

You said it takes less energy for the same output. That isn't correct.
Eric

Lol.

Telling a guy they're wrong is easy. Explaining how they're wrong takes talent. Especially with a guy, with experience.

Don't take the easy route. Knock me back in my seat with your knowledge.

Also, quote my entire comment next time, there's a little more to my comment than you're portraying.