building a barn first curve ball

[Rockbadchild]

From my experience with building requests within protected zones, mapping, and the Ontario government, it's less than well informed people using data from unreliable sources, to enforce regulations because it's easier to say no, than to try to work it out for the applicant.

That said, we have built up areas in real flood zones near my area in central Ontario. As a long time volunteer firefighter, I've been to a lot of flooded homes, the same year after year. If flooding is a true risk where you're considering building, take it seriously.

But, after my investigation, the mapping that the Ontario government refers to for these serious determinations is very casual. I was told from within the government that: ".... summer students are hired to use the aerial photos to create the mapping..." [for later use]. Thus, well meaning, but low skilled people are making interpretations which really affect what you want to do, and then a bureaucrat uses those maps without further (qualified) interpretation, to apply the prevailing regulations for better or worse.

I did overcome the Lake Simcoe Conservation Authority, and had their refusal to allow my building overturned. I did that based upon their (I demanded) on site inspection, and review of topographic reality of the land. Based upon that success, I helped a friend with the permit for his garage. But, he is on the bitter edge of a flood zone, and I came to understand it was a matter of feet of location, and the answer would have been a hard no for him.

When you're dealing with the local authority, ask: Are they actually enforcing a regulation, in denying your request? Or, are they interpreting mapping, and making their own decision? If they are blindly enforcing a regulation, you've got a tough path ahead, as they have no motivation to be found to have broken a regulation, particularly when that parcel of land is the subject of a flood complaint in years to come. If they are interpreting, maybe reason can be added to the basis for the decision. Would they accept a berm around the affected area? Or, raise the base height of your barn?

thanks for that, you demanded it and they did it ? good to know thanks,

I was told this is the zone (got a screen shot) and you can't built with in it, but when I asked how can they identify where the line is on my propriety they said they wouldn't know, so that beg the question how can they reinforce something without coordinates or elevation. But I can ask about the reinforcement or denied of permit but my guess is they would and at this point I ask too many questions and provided too much information for them to turn a blind eye. When I ask that question it was exactly my thought, it will be for you (the town) to argue it is not at the right location but at the risk to delay my project so I was skeptical to choose that route, I am trying to get all my ducks in a row so a month delay before the project starts won't end well for nobody especially me.

I was told today it is a older ''recycle'' zoning map from their GIS program (not sure what it means or where it came from still) which they simply made a boundary around stream without consideration obviously since they didn't follow the ground topography at all.

thanks for these ideas I will keep these question/options in mind as last resort but I am pushing to get this zone updated as it contradict the topographic / ground elevations and it is physically impossible for the water to reach that point unless major negligence from the MTO or CN (railroad) from culvert blockage, I made the calculation with a 5 inch storm from the whole streams/lake watershed without outflow, absorption or water retention and there is no worry to have so I hope it will be like your case of lake Simcoe.

 

[Jims1025R]

The key is to not allow 100% dependence upon a planning map which may have casual errors in boundaries, which they now take as the gospel. Don't deny their concerns about flood vulnerability, show them why their valid concerns are not applicable to your planning - but may sure you're right!

 

[Torvy]

Fema is an American thing but i will look for the canadian equivalent

Just be Trudeau's friend and you can do as you like.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Just be Trudeau's friend and you can do as you like.

Don't put me and him in the same sentences, plus I don't swing that way, sexually or politically.

 

[CliffordK]

Talk to the planning department (in person), as well as some of the neighbors. Have you been there for more than a full year? This is mid winter, so how is the creek flowing now?

Are those nearby lakes natural or artificial? How high can they get?

One of the modern types of flood planning it to allow rivers to spread out rather than containing everything in dikes. That may impact your construction. However, I'd probably plan on bringing in some fill dirt. Build an artificial hill for your barn 1 or 2 meters tall, or whatever seems appropriate. So, if everything floods, your barn will still be on an island. If your house is also low, then I'd also consider getting it raised up.

Oh, also get an accurate survey of the barn location, and nearby creek, and possibly the lakes with accurate elevations.

Mom has a small seasonal creek behind her house. Perhaps 4 feet x 4 feet or so. Much of the winter it stays within its banks, but regularly it floods 100 meters beyond the banks. Fortunately it has never come close to the house or barn, but there are parts of the property that I would not build.

 

[CliffordK]

yes I saw this site but other then a topographic map I can't seem to find the actual flood map.

Something appears broken with your map. You generally can't have a creek flowing across a loop in a topo line, unless it has steep banks, and perhaps is an artificial drainage ditch dug with an excavator. Do your own surveys.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Something appears broken with your map. You generally can't have a creek flowing across a loop in a topo line, unless it has steep banks, and perhaps is an artificial drainage ditch dug with an excavator. Do your own surveys.

not my map, its a governmental topo map, yeah that part glitch out for sure. I grew up on that land but I am not 100 year old by any means, see the hill in that picture that's the elevation the barn will be built on simply the other side, so apposite of where this picture is facing but same elevation, and this picture doesn't even do it justice compare to in persons, the creek already has its natural flood zone at the bottom of it, it has a nice U shape with at least 3m (10ft) of a nest on each side, the water level on this picture is as high has it will ever be despite of the rain, it would over flow over the bridge at most, the creek only flow during the fall and spring, maybe early summer if its a really rainy summer. I've never see this creek overflow its banks during the summer

this might clear it up, the a cross section of the creek

 

[CliffordK]

It sounds like your creek already has its own flood zone built in.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about global warming, and perhaps weather pattern changes. So, potentially dryer or wetter, or both.

You are probably OK. But, still talk to the planning department. Then stake out your building site and get it surveyed, as well as surveying the general topology of your property.

I still might consider adding a little fill at the barn site. Although if you put in a little gravel then concrete over the gravel, you could easily raise the floor by a foot or so which might be enough.

Our biggest recent flood was 1964 (before I was born). Hard freeze (making soil impermeable) + heavy low elevation snow + followed by heavy warm rain. A combination of events that meant lots of water runoff. Unfortunately, while the flood levels of the major rivers are well documented, that may not include smaller tributaries.

Perhaps look for a drone survey company to get a good map of your property.

 

[Rockbadchild]

It sounds like your creek already has its own flood zone built in.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about global warming, and perhaps weather pattern changes. So, potentially dryer or wetter, or both.

You are probably OK. But, still talk to the planning department. Then stake out your building site and get it surveyed, as well as surveying the general topology of your property.

I still might consider adding a little fill at the barn site. Although if you put in a little gravel then concrete over the gravel, you could easily raise the floor by a foot or so which might be enough.

Our biggest recent flood was 1964 (before I was born). Hard freeze (making soil impermeable) + heavy low elevation snow + followed by heavy warm rain. A combination of events that meant lots of water runoff. Unfortunately, while the flood levels of the major rivers are well documented, that may not include smaller tributaries.

Perhaps look for a drone survey company to get a good map of your property.

I calculated it with that scenario without the snow factor (I understand that would make a differences), I calculated the biggest storm ever recorded for the region (bigger then the 100 year storm), it was in 1961 with 4.77 inch of rain without absorption or run off, and the nest is capable to contained it. We can't plan everything to be bomb proof some risk will always be there the reality is if a ice age start or a second Noa flood having my barn elevated to the sky won't save me. Anyhow I've sent my proposal, if that doesn't work, then yeah I will have to do a drone survey and do what ever to please them, but I won't do it if I don't have too.

What doesn't make sense and I cant get over is the south side of the property is lower then the north side but yet the south is not in the flood zone but the north is, so I could built on lower ground on the south side, if they didn't base their flood zone with the elevation how elevating the barn on the north side would make a differences for them.

 

[dodge man]

I realize you are in Canada but in the US my understanding is the flood elevations are fairly accurate the way they are calculated. What is not accurate is the elevations of peoples property. Say the base flood elevation is 290. That number is probably in the ballpark. They show a part of your property in the flood at elevation 287. Maybe that part of the property is really 295. That’s kind of what it sounds like is going on with your property.