Got asked to bid a very unusual project

[D&D]

No.
The “window” you speak of is a window wall about 50’ high and 100’ wide. Its a window to a museum with extremely expensive artwork in it.

The last flood nearly destroyed the museum. Trust me when I say, this ain’t no house. This is a museum worth a lot of money that needs protection from future floods.

Sounds good

 

[LHF2019]

Did the engineering company also make recommendations on how to clear the log jams or did their report stop at determining the log jams are causing the back-up?

Also wonder if the RR or whomever looked into getting this cleared up, but either can't find a contractor or the quote is so much they're hoping it will just wash away in a flood?

I'm quite serious in saying once you get into navigable waterways and railroads, the law is very specialized and not something the average attorney will know much about.

You need to start reading from the beginning. The who has been answered.the legal has been taken care of because of the who. In any case screw legal and have fun.

I did like the one that had somebody on the pile hooking them up and drag to shore. Sounds like something I’d attempt.

Hay dude. Are you also clearing the down stream ones as well?

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

This is really far from you, but it's my first thought. Another thought would be building a "road" where you say you can get the pickup truck the removing it when you are done. I'm sure you know any way you slice it, there will be some serious expense.

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[Hay Dude]

Did the engineering company also make recommendations on how to clear the log jams or did their report stop at determining the log jams are causing the back-up?

No, they just recommended cleaning up the whole area of fallen debris to reduce water back-up/flooding.

Also wonder if the RR or whomever looked into getting this cleared up, but either can't find a contractor or the quote is so much they're hoping it will just wash away in a flood?

The railroad that currently owns it, has never run a piece of equipment on it. It was a freight, then passenger, then freigh railroad. Hasn’t seen a railcar since the mid 80’s, then it was taken over by the current owner (SEPTA). The last flood was the biggest we have ever had. It was the one that deposited all the trees there in the first place. Subsequent smaller floods have not washed the debris away.

I'm quite serious in saying once you get into navigable waterways and railroads, the law is very specialized and not something the average attorney will know much about.

I know and I understand it the same way you do.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yep, I think it has more to do with someone’s view out of the window.

So here’s the “view from someone’s window”. About 100,000 people pass by these windows each year. The museum wants to keep the flooding risk as low as possible and the people visiting probably would rather not look at this tangled mess.

This is the log jam from the other side of the river. You can see mud/silt starting to build a small peninsula in front of the log jam.

 

[Hay Dude]

Here’s some pictures of the flood plane and more of the scope of the project. There are several rail support piers about 10-12’ tall on the flood plane. Some have large trees which catch more floating trees and branches, backing up the water and reducing flow.

I *think* I might be able to get a wide track excavator with thumb down here to clean up this part. There IS a access road to this area. The issue is crossing the currently active East Penn Railroad tracks.

A little closer views

It was a sight to see when trains ran on this raised track. I can remember it as a little boy.

Luckily, the power lines are largely out of the way.


There is an access road. You have to cross a nearby active railroad to get down there. You can see the active rails to the right of the “ramp” trail that goes down to the flood plane.

 

[rScotty]

The problem I see is that removing this log jam isn't going to prevent the next one.
A better solution is one that does more than just pushing today's problem towards tomorrow.

Also, when the problem is difficult, I favor solutions where the customer is required to have some involvement. In this case, the museum and the museum patrons are in a position to have political and financial influence that extends far beyond simply paying for a one time job.

Repairing the railway well enough to use a railway crane is where I would start, and I would ask the museum to use its influence to accomplish that chore. That would take care of both this and susequent jams at that location, and it would also serve as a general solution that could be used for the other area logjams.
rScotty

 

[plowhog]

Questions:

- is your customer seeking a fixed price bid or are they open to (open ended) time and materials?
- is the scope of work only logs visible or does it also include a submerged pile down to the river bottom?
- is it possible to bid the job and receive a carve out that you are not responsible for anything that floats away?
- is it possible to interrupt or stop the water flow long enough to provide better access?
- would you be allowed to set anchors, either on shore or on the island/pier the logs are bunched up against?

Looks like a fun project. I presume in advance there might not be a lot of bidding competition!

 

[airbiscuit]

It looks like - to start - A good bit of chainsaw work to cut the top stuff up into 4'-5' chunks and cable it over to shore. Then you'll have an idea of what's left in the water to winch to shore Jenga style.

 

[Hay Dude]

The problem I see is that removing this log jam isn't going to prevent the next one.
A better solution is one that does more than just pushing today's problem towards tomorrow.

Also, when the problem is difficult, I favor solutions where the customer is required to have some involvement. In this case, the museum and the museum patrons are in a position to have political and financial influence that extends far beyond simply paying for a one time job.

Repairing the railway well enough to use a railway crane is where I would start, and I would ask the museum to use its influence to accomplish that chore. That would take care of both this and susequent jams at that location, and it would also serve as a general solution that could be used for the other area logjams.
rScotty

The railway has ZERO chance of every being a railway again. The Railroad is overgrown with trees and rotted ties for 8 miles.

Although the log jam could happen again, the several thousand dollars to have me remove it dwarfs the 10’s of millions it would cost to reopen the railroad. Besides, we met with the railroad owner and they have no intentions of reopening, so it’s not even a possibility. All the industry has left for China. Game over for this railway.

Here is a photo of the last incursion onto the rail bridge in 1987. This was a rescue mission to retrieve a couple stranded rail cars before the condition of the rails became impossible. Almost 40 years ago

Supposedly, this is a small, lightweight locomotive and they went very slowly.
There’s another picture with a guy at the front railing with a headset on communicating with the engineer about track conditions.

 

[2manyrocks]

You need to start reading from the beginning. The who has been answered.the legal has been taken care of because of the who. In any case screw legal and have fun.

I did like the one that had somebody on the pile hooking them up and drag to shore. Sounds like something I’d attempt.

Hay dude. Are you also clearing the down stream ones as well?

If we were making guesses, why not guess the conservancy is weary of nothing being done and simply asked Hay Dude what it would take to clear up the jam without actually having looked into who has legal responsibility to clear up the log jam?

If the RR isn't using the tracks, why wouldn't SEPTA at least allow access to remove the debris that endangers their bridge support and protects the conservancy's property?

There's more than one log jam here and isn't all logs.

 

[Hay Dude]

Questions:

- is your customer seeking a fixed price bid or are they open to (open ended) time and materials?

Fixed price is probably what they expect. There’s no “materials” and I have a pretty good handle on the time needed to do it. Only other thing is excavator & crane rental.

- is the scope of work only logs visible or does it also include a submerged pile down to the river bottom?

Just visible as far as I know. Might as well get the submerged ones while there. I’m a good swimmer/diver lol

- is it possible to bid the job and receive a carve out that you are not responsible for anything that floats away?

I think I’m on the hook for damages, but I don’t see much chance if I take the route of cutting into small pieces.

- is it possible to interrupt or stop the water flow long enough to provide better access?

Oh heavens no. Its a river!

- would you be allowed to set anchors, either on shore or on the island/pier the logs are bunched up against?

Yes

Looks like a fun project. I presume in advance there might not be a lot of bidding competition!

I agree!

 

[Hay Dude]

If we were making guesses, why not guess the conservancy is weary of nothing being done and simply asked Hay Dude what it would take to clear up the jam without actually having looked into who has legal responsibility to clear up the log jam?

I am one of a few in the area who take on impossible tasks and they know it. I don’t think their staffer has any idea about liabilities, but if I do the “cut short pieces” method, I think there’s little chance of down-river damage. In fact, if you look down-river, there’s a shallow area and a huge sand bar. I would think it’ll float slowly, and probably harmlessly down the river.

If the RR isn't using the tracks, why wouldn't SEPTA at least allow access to remove the debris that endangers their bridge support and protects the conservancy's property?

Bigger question is if the bridge technically belongs to SEPTA, why won’t they clear the log jam? My guess is since the tracks are closed for last 40+ years, they are practicing “willful neglect or abandonment and simply allowing the structure to eventually collapse? I really don’t know what is on their minds.

There's more than one log jam here and isn't all logs.

It’s not really that bad. The part in the water is a bit tricky. The part on land looks like it could be straight forward.

 

[plowhog]

Maybe a first impression would be to excavate down and set a very strong, shore based concrete anchor in the ground. Then use that along with a gear reduction device or block and tackle etc. to enhance pull strength. As a log is winched to shore and runs aground, pick it up with your excavator and load it. After the job is finished you could cover up the concrete anchor with topsoil.

For access to set chains, etc. you need an employee out there who can safely navigate. Maybe a telehandler / excavator / whatever with enough reach to be able to set and hold in place a "work platform" above the mess (and above danger should it dislodge).

Finally, you mentioned a few thousand dollars? I wouldn't touch it unless the agreed price was exponentially higher. Too much that can go wrong, plenty of risk. But that's just me.

 

[Hay Dude]

View attachment 848421

It looks like - to start - A good bit of chainsaw work to cut the top stuff up into 4'-5' chunks and cable it over to shore. Then you'll have an idea of what's left in the water to winch to shore Jenga style.
View attachment 848423

Yes I am beginning to think a floating platform, anchored at the tip of the “sand bar” might be a decent point from which to cut/release pieces, but this brings about another issue:

If you stand on sandbar and cut pieces to create space, soon you’ll have logs in the water to cut. Can’t put chainsaw in the water.

 

[Snobdds]

The problem I see is that removing this log jam isn't going to prevent the next one.
A better solution is one that does more than just pushing today's problem towards tomorrow.

Also, when the problem is difficult, I favor solutions where the customer is required to have some involvement. In this case, the museum and the museum patrons are in a position to have political and financial influence that extends far beyond simply paying for a one time job.

Repairing the railway well enough to use a railway crane is where I would start, and I would ask the museum to use its influence to accomplish that chore. That would take care of both this and susequent jams at that location, and it would also serve as a general solution that could be used for the other area logjams.
rScotty

That might take 10 years before the funds are raised to fund the project.

 

[Snobdds]

A long reach dredging excavator is still your best option.

 

[2manyrocks]

Bigger question is if the bridge technically belongs to SEPTA, why won’t they clear the log jam? My guess is since the tracks are closed for last 40+ years, they are practicing “willful neglect or abandonment and simply allowing the structure to eventually collapse? I really don’t know what is on their minds.



It’s not really that bad. The part in the water is a bit tricky. The part on land looks like it could be straight forward.

Maybe part of the problem is a failure to communicate instead of directly asking SEPTA? They might say they don't have the money to take care of all of it. They might say you could have access to the bridge if they were provided with adequate proof of insurance? Maybe they'd abandon the whole thing to the conservancy? Maybe the conservancy doesn't want the responsibility of dealing with future log jams?

If they granted access, would the work be easier, less risky, and more cost effective?

The point is it's impossible to know without communicating effectively.

 

[Topzide]

You need a hydraulic chainsaw with environmentally friendly hydraulic fluid that runs and lubes the chain. That way you could use under the water.

 

[Snobdds]

Maybe part of the problem is a failure to communicate instead of directly asking SEPTA? They might say they don't have the money to take care of all of it. They might say you could have access to the bridge if they were provided with adequate proof of insurance? Maybe they'd abandon the whole thing to the conservancy? Maybe the conservancy doesn't want the responsibility of dealing with future log jams?

If they granted access, would the work be easier, less risky, and more cost effective?

The point is it's impossible to know without communicating effectively.

You have to be a government employee with this type of mentality.