Anyone ever permit a 'Farm Pond' or borrow pit

[paulsharvey]

I'm don't really want this to be a should I have to or should I not; it's more of a topic on if required to permit a pond, what was your experience?

This is really a fact finding mission.

Background; we are looking for properties, 5-20 acres; either with a creek/pond/spring; or without the pond, and construction one. I do work within a permitting type job, but not with a DEP/water management organization. I did some reading on my local regulatory agency website; and it appears entirely upland 'farm ponds' and borrow pits are exempt from permitting (if 5 acres or less) but ones in wetlands, or connected to wetlands, or drainage basins require a Environmental Resource Permit.

Ideally, I would want to basically waller out an already wet, mucky hole, that stays wet, but doesn't really have surface water, into a maybe 80 ft open water pond, maybe sloping to a max of 6-8 ft depth at the deepest point.

This is FLa, so we aren't talking about constructing dams, we are talking about digging down to the water table.

Anyone every done this? How much trouble was it? The construction part is relatively 'simple'; it's the legalities that might get complex.

I wouldn't expect you would need drainage calls, or discharge points; it's not to collect rain water or anything.

 

[Panik]

I've never done it, nor do I have a dog in any debate over the topic. However I'm curious as a FL expatriate which regulatory agency's website you were reading from? FL DEP?

With the water table such as it is in a lot of Florida, as well as the underlying aquifer(s) it's honestly surprising to me that either the Army Corp and/or relevant Water Management District wouldn't require permitting/inspection for something approaching 5 acres in size.... that's not exactly a small impoundment.

If that's the case I wonder if it's a holdover from Fl's Ag/ranching history. Regardless, I'm curious to see where this tread goes.

 

[paulsharvey]

I've never done it, nor do I have a dog in any debate over the topic. However I'm curious as a FL expatriate which regulatory agency's website you were reading from? FL DEP?

With the water table such as it is in a lot of Florida, as well as the underlying aquifer(s) it's honestly surprising to me that either the Army Corp and/or relevant Water Management District wouldn't require permitting/inspection for something approaching 5 acres in size.... that's not exactly a small impoundment.

If that's the case I wonder if it's a holdover from Fl's Ag/ranching history. Regardless, I'm curious to see where this tread goes.

St John's River Water Management District.

On the water table; is varies so much. At my current place, you can dig 10 ft and not encounter ground water; but 8 miles south, the water table is above the ground level.

 

[Panik]

St John's River Water Management District.

On the water table; is varies so much. At my current place, you can dig 10 ft and not encounter ground water; but 8 miles south, the water table is above the ground level.

I hear you... I grew up outside of Tarpon Springs on the edge of the Anclote salt marsh. 5' from the back of our house was 1' above sea level, yet the water table height was all over the place on my folks property as a result of remnant, historic sand dunes from when the coast line was different.

Interestingly, I worked for the SW FL Water Management District out of college doing aquifer monitoring. The org could be pretty litigious, but as I best remember it was mostly geared to large corp & private land holders and larger scale developments... basically things that could have large scale changes on water quality/consumption. But that was approaching 25 years ago.

 

[paulsharvey]

I hear you... I grew up outside of Tarpon Springs on the edge of the Anclote salt marsh. 5' from the back of our house was 1' above sea level, yet the water table height was all over the place on my folks property as a result of remnant, historic sand dunes from when the coast line was different.

Interestingly, I worked for the SW FL Water Management District out of college doing aquifer monitoring. The org could be pretty litigious, but as I best remember it was mostly geared to large corp & private land holders and larger scale developments... basically things that could have large scale changes on water quality/consumption. But that was approaching 25 years ago.

I wonder if it would be a simple process. It might be a matter of submitting an aerial with a drawing; or it might require a PE stamp. The upland farm pond would also be a pretty simple answer; but if it was relatively simple to permit on in an existing wetland, that would be better; as you not giving up usable land.


I also do understand the reasoning for requiring some permitting; if you want to dig a 20 ft deep, 10 acre pit, as part of a wetland, it would change the whole wetland/drainage basins, beyond your property lines.

It also wouldn't be that hard to just do the work; it's not easy to spot stuff on aerials if the footprint is kept small and clean. Not ideal, and the problems could be much larger.

 

[Wolverinefarm22]

Not from Florida but here in Michigan if your a farmer best to just not ask for permission and do what ya need. And do it right. Only way anyone complains is if the landowner is a jack*** about it

 

[paulsharvey]

Not from Florida but here in Michigan if your a farmer best to just not ask for permission and do what ya need. And do it right. Only way anyone complains is if the landowner is a jack*** about it

I dont 100% disagree; But, I want as much info as possible about what I can/can't do on a piece of property before I consider purchasing it. If you 100% know you can't excavate/dredge in the wetland (we aren't talking about a marsh, small wet woods, mostly gum and hickory, with palmetto, and very few, small cypress); thats something you want to know. If you choose to do it anyways, that's fine too. But if it's a matter of spending $500 on a permit, and doing it right; that's the path I would take. If it involves drainage calculations and a PE @ $300/hr; and all that, that's also useful info to have. I have no doubt you can dig a watering hole; and noone ever finds out; but a small but nice pond is/maybe a different story.

 

[m7040]

Don't know about Florida but around here it needs a permit if it has a stream flowing through the pond and supported with engineering calculations

 

[paulsharvey]

I have determined if the 'farm pond' or 'borrow pit' is less than 5 acres and in upland and not connected to wetlands, no permit from StJRWMD, but if greater than 5 acres (that's not gonna be an issue), or in a wetland, a Environmental Resource Permit Is required.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.