Time to check out the generator.

[ponytug]

I grew up in California, the Bay Area. I moved to the Sierra in 1977. My wife got pregnant so we moved lower down to Tuolumne City. We would get a notice with our water bill that the water we were paying dearly for was unfit for human consumption. We were drinking PG&E "Ditch Water". The ditch water was from a flume originally used for hydraulic mining of gold in the 1800s. PG&E never bothered to cover the miles long flume and ditch system so we got bad and expensive water. No wonder we left in 1980 and ended up in WA State. PG&E has not changed in all these years. They couldn't care less about their customers or the fires and deaths they have caused. It seems to me they should be disbanded.
Eric

Yup. Haven't changed much.

 

[5030]

When we built our new house, I had a whole house generator installed and will never be without one again. It does a 10 minute self test run every Monday at 10:00 a.m.

Old remodeled 120 yar old shack... The house has it's own propane fired 20KW Generac and the shop and barns have a 35KW John Deere powered diesel fired Generac that makes 110-220-3 and 440 and it runs off my 500 gallon farm diesel tank and it has it's own 150 gallon tank underneath the unit as well. Both of them exercise weekly and both are hard wired (of course) through a vacuum breaker breakout switch that breaks utility power before they assume the load. Both are over 15 years old and other than routine service, both run like tops. When we lose the utility (which is often out here), the units assume the load in 45 seconds.

Glad I bought them when I did because the cost of the bigger units is outta sight today. Priced a new 20 KW Generac the other day and they are 15 grand not including install. Didn't even bother pricing the diesel unit, probably scary high.

Finally, glad I don't live in Kalifornia and if I did, I'd be moving east.

Next time I start one of my pre 4 diesel powered M9's and it blows off a puff of black sooty smoke, I'll be thinking about all of you out there...lol

 

[bigtiller]

I grew up in California, the Bay Area. I moved to the Sierra in 1977. My wife got pregnant so we moved lower down to Tuolumne City. We would get a notice with our water bill that the water we were paying dearly for was unfit for human consumption. We were drinking PG&E "Ditch Water". The ditch water was from a flume originally used for hydraulic mining of gold in the 1800s. PG&E never bothered to cover the miles long flume and ditch system so we got bad and expensive water. No wonder we left in 1980 and ended up in WA State. PG&E has not changed in all these years. They couldn't care less about their customers or the fires and deaths they have caused. It seems to me they should be disbanded.
Eric

Sounds like Erin Brockovich could have stung a little harder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich​

 

[bdhsfz6]

PGE notified the Hospital that a PSPS may be in the future as early as noon Thursday.

This is when the utility shuts down the grid which may cover most of Northern California as a measure to prevent a repeat of some of the massive wildfires in weather events...

And this is the same grid California wants you to use to charge your electric car!

 

[ultrarunner]

And this is the same grid California wants you to use to charge your electric car!

Yep and at some of the highest rates in the country…

I bet I see dollar a kWh someday in the future for peak use.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Any home backup generator is only as good as the fuel supply you have on hand or can get delivered reliably.

Propane is the most common but as posted earlier, requires a very large storage tank and could be difficult to resupply during an extended outage.

Gasoline has similar issues with the addition of shelf life and safety concerns. Before I went diesel, I used to fuel my gas genny by siphoning fuel from my vehicles. It often got messy and there is always the health issue.

IMO, if you heat with fuel oil, the best option is a diesel generator. I have a 1000 gal tank and even half full, it will supply my 11KW genny for a month if necessary. Yes, there is always the possibility of gelling and bacteria contamination, but I've been using it in my furnace and tractors for decades and have never had this issue.

 

[Up to the Axles]

When I was evaluating the fuel choice, there were factors on each side. Getting a propane refill post-earthquake was a major minus. But the ability to bury a 500-1000 gallon propane tank was a plus; you can store the fuel forever. I was told such can survive a wildfire. And any contamination was in the liquid; you burn the vapor.

Smaller generators run off of 20# "BBQ bottles" tanks.

Storing a quantity of Diesel has many issues, including insurance. You will never get a permit in NoCal to bury a Diesel tank unless you spend $$$ and years. You have to "groom" the fuel to kill the bugs, circulate it, etc. But the engine has no ignition system to fail.

We decided on propane, with also a smaller PTO generator off of the Kubota. As it happened, the client changed jobs and moved out of state before building the house.

BTW, don't confuse #2 Heating Oil with Diesel. #2 has a lower Cetane rating and was also hard on injector pumps. You can likely get away with using it at the expense of engine life.

 

[ponytug]

When I was evaluating the fuel choice, there were factors on each side. Getting a propane refill post-earthquake was a major minus. But the ability to bury a 500-1000 gallon propane tank was a plus; you can store the fuel forever. I was told such can survive a wildfire. And any contamination was in the liquid; you burn the vapor.

Smaller generators run off of 20# "BBQ bottles" tanks.

Storing a quantity of Diesel has many issues, including insurance. You will never get a permit in NoCal to bury a Diesel tank unless you spend $$$ and years. You have to "groom" the fuel to kill the bugs, circulate it, etc. But the engine has no ignition system to fail.

We decided on propane, with also a smaller PTO generator off of the Kubota. As it happened, the client changed jobs and moved out of state before building the house.

BTW, don't confuse #2 Heating Oil with Diesel. #2 has a lower Cetane rating and was also hard on injector pumps. You can likely get away with using it at the expense of engine life.

Propane might survive a wildfire if it is in a well cleared area, and preferably buried. The Paradise, CA fire had lots of reports of propane tanks exploding. (The state now requires 10' clearance to dirt around the tanks) Defensible Space | CAL FIRE
Our county wants 20'.

Yes, I wouldn't want to try to get a permit for 1,000 gallon buried underground storage tank, especially as I know that there is a volume cutoff (55gallons underground) that gets you into larger regulations. I know that there is some exemption for farms and ranches, but I don't recall the limits.

Aboveground Petroleum Storage Act | OSFM

osfm.fire.ca.gov

I think your point on oil fuel is well taken. #2 heating oil and diesel may or may not be similar depending on the locale, but #2 heating oil is almost certainly short of lubricity enhancers and other additives diesel engines benefit from.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LouNY]

Propane might survive a wildfire if it is in a well cleared area, and preferably buried. The Paradise, CA fire had lots of reports of propane tanks exploding. (The state now requires 10' clearance to dirt around the tanks) Defensible Space | CAL FIRE
Our county wants 20'.

Yes, I wouldn't want to try to get a permit for 1,000 gallon buried underground storage tank, especially as I know that there is a volume cutoff (55gallons underground) that gets you into larger regulations. I know that there is some exemption for farms and ranches, but I don't recall the limits.

Aboveground Petroleum Storage Act | OSFM

osfm.fire.ca.gov

I think your point on oil fuel is well taken. #2 heating oil and diesel may or may not be similar depending on the locale, but #2 heating oil is almost certainly short of lubricity enhancers and other additives diesel engines benefit from.

All the best,

Peter

Around here #2 heating oil and #2 off road red dyed diesel come out of the same truck and have for several years.

 

[grsthegreat]

Around here #2 heating oil and #2 off road red dyed diesel come out of the same truck and have for several years.

Thats weird…. Here #1 diesel and red dyed diesel are the same. #2 heating is different tank. The red dyed diesel simply is regular diesel with dye added.

 

[ponytug]

Thats weird…. Here #1 diesel and red dyed diesel are the same. #2 heating is different tank. The red dyed diesel simply is regular diesel with dye added.

I do not think it is weird; I do think that what passes for home heating oil varies by location, just as gasoline blends vary by geography, brand, and season. I would point out that it gets just a wee bit colder where @grsthegreat is than where @LouNY is and that may have something to do with it.

Here, our diesel changes from #2 to something closer to #1 during the winter. I know of a few folks that took their vehicles from down here in the relative warmth with a tank of summer diesel up into the snow for some winter fun and had gelling issues. I think that folks who live in cold winter areas with diesels are more aware of cold weather gelling. Apparently, a few Californians were less aware...

As an aside, the hydro treated renewable diesel has a gel point as low as -40F.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Around here #2 heating oil and #2 off road red dyed diesel come out of the same truck and have for several years.

Same here, no difference between the two except the dye.

SR

 

[mjonesnh]

Thats weird…. Here #1 diesel and red dyed diesel are the same. #2 heating is different tank. The red dyed diesel simply is regular diesel with dye added.

In my area of Tn. if I would ask for #1 diesel it would more than likely be a mix of #2 diesel and kerosene. Probably 50/50 mix for winter use. No difference between red diesel and gas station pump diesel except dye for tax purpose.

 

[DarkBlack]

BTW, don't confuse #2 Heating Oil with Diesel. #2 has a lower Cetane rating and was also hard on injector pumps.

It’s all ultra low sulfur now.
No confusion on our part
The spec for diesel cetane means #2 may, or may not be identical. Economies of scale means a lot of diesel is the same as #2.
Seems recently, it’s cheaper for them to make a single product that meets the diesel spec

 

[Up to the Axles]

I do think that what passes for home heating oil varies by location, just as gasoline blends vary by geography, brand, and season

Much of #2 is refined the previous summer. Here's why: When you refine crude you get light ends [gasoline] & distillates [Kero, #2 Heat, etc.] The refinery has some control of the ratio, but it'd never be 100:0; let's just say it's 60/40 or 40/60. So in the summer [driving season...] it's 60% gasoline/40% distillates. The latter is tanked all summer for winter use. In the winter, the 40% gasoline is what's tanked until summer. Those specific 80,000 bbl tanks were flipped back and forth every spring & fall.

Now as for brand, I got news for you. Companies trade all products back and forth. If Acme has 100,000 bbls of Regular in NJ, and Colorado-based Zebra needs it in OH, no problem. They may have too much Diesel and ....

The only exception was back then, Sunoco regular was 86, not 87 octane; no one would buy Sunoco Regular. This was because Sunoco promoted multiple octanes; they were created at the gas station pump by mixing the 86&93 in different ratios. Since then fuel injection has taken over and the standards for gas have been tightened. [Not octane, but other issues.]

Mountain areas "summer gas" was tweaked to avoid vapor lock, but I wonder if it still is, given the switch to fuel injection and in-tank pumps that push vs pull fuel.

 

[ponytug]

Around here summer gas is tweaked to lower the vapor pressure and winter gas has additional oxygenates. That's pretty much the case in any area in the US under air quality regulations.

 

[bdhsfz6]

I suppose there will be no end to the debate over the difference between home heating oil & diesel. The fact remains that I have been using heating oil in my diesel engines for 45 years now and have never had any issues.

The fuel oil I get here is an Exon / Mobile product and the dealer says the only difference is the color. The climate here in PA isn't extreme though, so I can't pass judgement on it's use or composition in other parts of the country.

 

[Up to the Axles]

Yes, I wouldn't want to try to get a permit for 1,000 gallon buried underground storage tank, especially as I know that there is a volume cutoff (55gallons underground) that gets you into larger regulations.

I was just looking at the APSA and it exempts propane.

 

[ponytug]

I was just looking at the APSA and it exempts propane.

Yes, you are right it does exempt propane. I think that the intent of the act is really focused materials that could leak and cause environmental issues. So, a large buried propane tank would be pretty safe in the face of wildfire, with no permits needed.

All the best,

Peter

 

[bdhsfz6]

A question on the warmup time for Diesel powered generators.

First, the background:

When I last hooked up my PTO generator to test, I decided I was getting too old to deal with the hassle. Taking the existing implement off the tractor and attaching the genny for a power outage that may only last a short period of time, seemed like more effort than it was worth. Losing use of the tractor for other purposes during longer outages, and having to refuel it outdoors during bad weather, was also a negative.

Earlier this month, I sold the PTO genny, which had served me well for many years, and bought a Kubota GL11000 standalone diesel generator. I'm in the process of installing it in the back of one of the barns with an automatic transfer switch. It's been a learning experience so far and not without issues.

The question:

The generator has the OEM automatic transfer option, which starts the engine 20 seconds after the power goes out. 10 seconds later, the transfer relay activates, and generator power is restored to the house.

This is what I don't understand: The manual says to warm the engine for 5 to 20 minutes, depending on temperature, before applying load. Otherwise engine damage could occur. The factory installed transfer switch applies the load just 10 seconds after the engine starts. Why would the engineers design a transfer switch that could damage the engine?

This short delay between outage and switch to generator power is common for propane and gasoline powered systems but does not seem appropriate for diesel. The manuals for all the diesel tractors I've owned say to warm the engine before applying load.

Yet I see many diesel powered systems that ignore the warmup period. People frequently jump in their diesel pickups, start them and drive away. The twin Cummins diesel powered generators in the basement of the building where I used to work, transfer from commercial to generator power in less than 5 seconds. What gives? Is there something magic about diesel engines used to power generators?