Natural gas?

[Dftodd]

We're downsizing house and property after being here for over 20 years.

New home is still rural, but closer to larger town and a lot more homes on the road to what I've been used to.

Wife noticed a gas line on the new road, so I called the local natural gas company. Turns out if I convert the heating system to gas, they would hook up a gas line to the home at no charge. HVAC needs to be replaced, and I'd have no qualms going with a dual fuel system with gas furnace and heat pump.

Big plus to my wife is this home is a total renovation (built in 1962 and still looks it) so new kitchen and she's liking the idea of a natural gas stove for cooking.

I'm 60, and I don't think neither my wife and I have ever lived in a home using natural gas. Current home is propane, and only use it for one gas furnace in the attic and a tankless water heater and a vent free fireplace we rarely use. New home has electric water heater and a oil furnace that is coming out no matter what.

Although I hate LP pricing, do love our tankless water heater and honestly don't care for the fact that this new home is 100% electric except for that oil furnace. Since the house is going to get new electrical and plumbing, at this point, don't really see a issue with running a gas line in the "new" home. New home single story with unfinished basement which I'm liking because you can see everything in the basement.

So the dumb question is there any reason why not to use natural gas if it's available?

There was some serious growing pains and major billing mistakes when the local natural gas company was bought out by summit utilities.

People went from a $200 gas bill to owing thousands over night and were having their gas shut off in the middle of winter over it.

The state finally had to step in and freeze the gas companies assets and put a moratorium on their bills until they got their sh#t together.

My suggestion would be to look at what you have for appliances and pick and choose which would be the most beneficial to switch to natural gas.

We're planning on building a home soon. Only two of the appliances are gonna be gas, the rest will be electric.

Central heat and air are gonna be electric as well as the clothes dryer.

Here in Arkansas if the home is insulated right, and with the good windows (with thermal coatings) the heat pump is the most economical.

I'm planning on a pellet stove for supplemental heat and emergency heat via a generator if there's a power outage.

The only two appliances that will be gas are an on demand water heater, and the kitchen stove. For me it will be propane though.

After living two years in a camper, the gas stove and on demand water heater don't use squat for gas. 30lbs of propane last me three months in the summer when the furnace isn't running.

Now the furnace is a gas ****.

So if you have a decent heat pump, I would probably stick with that for basic heat and air.

 

[ultrarunner]

We also have geothermal heat and no gas. I was told that geothermal heating cost is comparable to natural gas. Natural gas is not available here. We also use an induction cooktop that heats as fast as gas. Also have a heat pump water heater. No gas here unless I drink too much milk or eat beans.

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

 

[ponytug]

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

If you opt for a heat pump water heater and can put it in the garage, I would recommend it. They aren't quiet, and if they are located in a conditioned space, they are energy inefficient.

I think a better solution is a split heat pump water heaters with the compressor outdoors. Sanco and Eco-Logical make ones.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

I don't understand the complaint about the delay for on-demand water heaters. There is always a delay, no matter the source (tank or tankless) as the water in the lines is cold, unless you do a recirc pump as a few folks mentioned. Of course it depends a lot on the distance, too. Is the delay slightly longer on tankless? Yeah a few seconds as it has to fire up first, but we are talking maybe an extra 5-10 seconds here and if you are using hot water for a shower or anything long just wait a few seconds for it. If that is too much for you, either do a recirc system, or put small electric point-of-use heaters at each faucet you want instant heat so it heats the water immediately until the hot water arrives from the main unit. For a long run, that may make sense and our kitchen island is like that. In hindsight I wish I put a POU heater there. Still probably could, if I really wanted to...

My experience - we used to have a 75 gallon tank, currently have a high-end tankless. Recirc on both.

Tank: Truly instant-on with that recirc. The recirc was on all the time that it was on (5AM-11PM typically); the loop was basically an extension of the tank.

Tankless: The tankless only fires up if there's sufficient flow (>0.4gpm). The recirc will flow above this amount (0.5gpm), but the recirc turns off if the return water temp is high enough. In practice what happens is this: The recirc makes the loop hot enough, then stops, and then it takes a while for the return loop temperature sensor in the tankless to cool off sufficiently for the recirc to come back on. Meanwhile, the loop has cooled off a lot more than that, big surprise. So you turn on the water in the kitchen and get cold (well, not hot, but not quite cold) water. Since the recirc isn't actually flowing there, the recirc still doesn't kick on until once again its reservoir cools, but the tankless will fire up - as long as you're using more than 0.4gpm. Not using more than 0.4gpm? Cold water, despite having a recirc.

So I find the efficiency gains of the tankless to be "interesting". I suspect that the tankless results in more water use (because you often need to dump the cold, plus you have to run at least 0.5gpm to maintain a hot water flow -- if you're washing dishes by hand and start using the sprayer which is definitely below 0.4gpm, the water will end up going cold because the tankless burner stops), though provably less energy use.
In some areas of the country, excess water use can be prohibitively expensive... though many of those areas also have very high energy costs. I'm not sure which is worse.

 

[ultrarunner]

I find the older pre nox gas water heaters true marvels… I would pickup 30 gallon for $88 at the big box store and typically get 15-20 years with no attention.

Now the natural gas heaters with nox are $650 to $850 and temperamental… doesn’t take much for one to shutdown.

I also have electric whole house electric at a cabin… works ok but I suspect because of 3 phase 380 volt.

 

[ning]

I find the older pre nox gas water heaters true marvels… I would pickup 30 gallon for $88 at the big box store and typically get 15-20 years with no attention.

Now the natural gas heaters with nox are $650 to $850 and temperamental… doesn’t take much for one to shutdown.

I also have electric whole house electric at a cabin… works ok but I suspect because of 3 phase 380 volt.

Yeah; our 75g State Select was put in in '96, and leaked in '22. I'd say I got my money's worth from it.
Only issue I ever had with it was a solenoid which disabled fuel (propane) flow unless the power vent was running would stick occasionally in the last ten years and I couldn't find a replacement... but I didn't try very hard because I found that a light tap on it would make it work for a few more weeks lol

 

[lman]

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

My HP water heater uses very little electricity and is in my basement but it does make a humming noise and would be annoying if it was nearer to our living space.

 

[Jstpssng]

In New England, ..., when you’d expect AC loads to raise grid prices, but during hot weather, the cheap NG can be fully used for electricity

Not really. Many people that I know don't even have AC. I only have a single room unit for when my dog was staying home on hot days. He's gone and I didn't even put it in the window this year.

 

[Dftodd]

Not really. Many people that I know don't even have AC. I only have a single room unit for when my dog was staying home on hot days. He's gone and I didn't even put it in the window this year.

We didn't have AC in our homes in vermont either. Although I had an apartment that I sure wished I had a window unit for.

We had a few weeks where it was absolutely miserable mid 90's during the day and low 80's at night.

The rest of the time you were shutting your fan off in the middle of the night and slapping another blanket on the bed

Here in Arkansas, AC is pretty much a necessity for 6 months out of the year.

We've had days this summer where the temps hit 104°. average though is mid to high 90's. High humidity.

Lows at night are high 70's to low 80's. Humidity still high.

I knew it was gonna be a miserable day when heading into work at sunrise and the temps were 78 or more and a low clinging fog across the fields.

 

[ultrarunner]

We don’t typically have A/C where I am in California but with the new heat pumps going in A/C comes with…

 

[DarkBlack]

Not really. Many people that I know don't even have AC. I only have a single room unit for when my dog was staying home on hot days. He's gone and I didn't even put it in the window this year.

You personally may not have AC, but many do, and the NE electric grid peak 15 minute and hour, load always occurs on one of the hottest weekday days of the year, usually between 3-6pm.
On hot days even though you’re without AC, your refrigerator and freezer are running longer cycles.
Factories and businesses are using AC, as well as millions of residents.
Anyway, my previous point was, the generator plants aren’t NG restricted during those days because there’s no residential heating taking priority of the NG

 

[jyoutz]

There was some serious growing pains and major billing mistakes when the local natural gas company was bought out by summit utilities.

People went from a $200 gas bill to owing thousands over night and were having their gas shut off in the middle of winter over it.

The state finally had to step in and freeze the gas companies assets and put a moratorium on their bills until they got their sh#t together.

My suggestion would be to look at what you have for appliances and pick and choose which would be the most beneficial to switch to natural gas.

We're planning on building a home soon. Only two of the appliances are gonna be gas, the rest will be electric.

Central heat and air are gonna be electric as well as the clothes dryer.

Here in Arkansas if the home is insulated right, and with the good windows (with thermal coatings) the heat pump is the most economical.

I'm planning on a pellet stove for supplemental heat and emergency heat via a generator if there's a power outage.

The only two appliances that will be gas are an on demand water heater, and the kitchen stove. For me it will be propane though.

After living two years in a camper, the gas stove and on demand water heater don't use squat for gas. 30lbs of propane last me three months in the summer when the furnace isn't running.

Now the furnace is a gas ****.

So if you have a decent heat pump, I would probably stick with that for basic heat and air.

Maybe it’s different in your location, but anything electric, especially heating is substantially more expensive to operate than a NG appliance. NG heating is very cheap, electric heat pumps are not cheap to operate.

 

[ultrarunner]

What are you guys paying a therm for Natural Gas?

 

[jyoutz]

What are you guys paying a therm for Natural Gas?

 

[ultrarunner]

Tier 1 is $2.46 per Therm

Tier 2 is $2.98 per Therm

Above does not include surcharges or 7.5% Oakland Utility Tax

Gas was reasonable in cost for a long time but at over $3 a Therm the writing is on the wall.

 

[lman]

Maybe it’s different in your location, but anything electric, especially heating is substantially more expensive to operate than a NG appliance. NG heating is very cheap, electric heat pumps are not cheap to operate.

In my location NG is not available in the rural areas so geothermal heating is the cheapest heating here. Maybe one day I'll move to town and use NG. Hopefully that day will not come for a while.

 

[Dftodd]

Maybe it’s different in your location, but anything electric, especially heating is substantially more expensive to operate than a NG appliance. NG heating is very cheap, electric heat pumps are not cheap to operate.

We have a nuke plant supplying our area with power

My gas bill to heat a 900 sqft apartment was $135 sixteen years ago. My electric bill to heat 2000 sqft house with a heat pump was $135 on average up until we sold it 4 years ago.

 

[duffer]

Haven't read all 6 pages, but I won't buy another house without nat gas. I grew up in a propane house, lived in several states with elec only. I've had heat pumps (Carrier's top of the line) and now have Carrier furnace in a different house. Night and day difference in heating. Nat gas heat puts out far higher air temps in the ducts than a heat pump. It's cheaper, cleaner, and when the elec goes out, you can still heat the house with a small portable generator to run the fan in the air handler. Or, just turn on the oven or your nat gas fireplace.

Do every appliance you can in nat gas: Stove, furnace, dryer, tankless water heater, wall oven. Just make sure your plumber or whoever installs the gas lines inside the house runs properly sized lines for each appliance. Had a builder that put undersized lines in one of my houses and couldn't get furnace to run right, until they changed it. Same is true for your tankless water heater.

 

[Sigarms]

My suggestion would be to look at what you have for appliances and pick and choose which would be the most beneficial to switch to natural gas.

End of the day, down the road, would prefer a tankless gas water heater. We have a pump at the furthest run to the master bath in our current home and we've both been very happy with it (and given that it's just myself and wife now, no doubt we shouldn't exceed the flow rate if sized properly and undersize it if we can get away with it).

The issue is for the free gas hook up, I've got to install a gas furnace. Since the future house is slightly less than 1,700 sq feet, would go with a 2 stage 96% and two stage heat pump (used primarily for heating). Luckily with the unfinished basement, I have plenty of room for a up flow system where as in most homes in NC, you're really stuck for space dealing with a crawl space or small attic (have an attic in our current home and it's not even fun to change the air filter).

Gas furnace may not even come on using that heat pump. If I didn't work in the HVAC industry, probably would use a single stage gas furnace. It's not going to cost me a whole bunch more to go with a dual fuel system vs straight heat pump (electric).

Originally my wife mentioned she would love a gas stove vs the old electric counter top she's been using for the last 20 years in the current home. Going to mention about an induction stove as well and she can pick whatever she wants. End of the day though, although the current electric water heater may not come out right away, but when it does come out, we can use gas.

The future home has a fireplace, but that room is laid out separate from the kitchen bedrooms and bathrooms in the home and we're still trying to figure out what to do with the fireplace. Doesn't make much sense to add money for a added fuel source to utilize the fireplace for really only one room.

Probably go with electric on the dryer. Only thing we have to change there is a hall to the room with the fireplace is basically going to be used. That hall is going to disappear and there will only be one way into the room with the fireplace. Both bathrooms are going to be enlarged using that hall space (believe me, master bath is SMALL where the secondary bath is at least twice the space) and we will be using a under and over washer and dryer to use in a portion of the hallway that is going to disappear. Current washer and dryer in the basement in the future home and that is one thing we don't want. Whole idea is to make our lives easier as we get older, and the basement washer and dryer is what finally made my dad come to live with us when he couldn't do his clothes anymore when he fractured his back.

 

[Sigarms]

What are you guys paying a therm for Natural Gas?

When I called, in our area it's currently $1.09 per therm.

Currently our propane is around $3.88 per gallon.

Going from 3,200 sq ft using propane to less than 1,700 sq ft having the chance to use natural gas seems like a no brainer.

Honestly, our biggest mistake when we bought our current home (larger one) was we had no clue what a hassle and headache it would be because the propane company owns the 500 gallon tank on the property (former home owner put it in some bushes so you can't see it, but it's on a slope and a major PITA to take it out, because I've tried).

We knew that whatever new place we bought either we'd own the tank ourselves (if it had propane) or forget it. I started dual fueling the current homes HVAC systems, and everytime I tried to save on LP, it seemed like the LP coming was screwing with me on pricing when our usage went down.

Besides that, just dealing with the current LP company has grown into a PITA on deliveries and basic communication because over the 20 years, it was bought out by larger companies over the years.