My F-1700 testing my patience

[JC-jetro]

Relief valve pics of how I dissembled it View attachment 645596View attachment 645597View attachment 645598View attachment 645599View attachment 645600

I really can't see anything glaringly wrong.I have the same shape, stiffness (just eye baling)spring and the rest of what you have in the pics. The poppet is nice and conical. Zoomed in pretty good and can't see anything wrong. I noticed your adjustment is all the way in, increasing spring stiffness and hyd pressure. I would back it all the way out, as if all you have is spring and adjustment. Have a gauge there at the lift assembly head and turn the tractor on. See if it makes all the racket or not. I would gradually turn the screw in to increase the pressure. Stop right where it starts squealing and the turn it back a hair for it to stop. See if you can lift anything up with 3-point. At this point, I would care to see if i can lift my implement, say a brush hog without vibration and squealing. if it could do it @ 1100 psi then I leave the adjustment be. if raising and lowering does not contribute to dead heading of the pump then I think your spool must be ok. Please try and post back.

JC,

 

[shannondurst]

Na the adjustment nut is just were I backed it off when removing. I will try the 1100 psi thank you for the help.

 

[JC-jetro]

I just came up with 1100 psi as just a number. I just want to see at what point it start squealing, backing it off to just stop and see what pressure that might be and if you can lift anything heavy enough right at that setting. I don't know how much you can actually squeeze the spring completely. Most likely that would be about 3/8" to shy of 1/2" at the most.

We need to figure this thing out. As Homer J, would say " Who'd thought a nuclear reactor would be so complicated "

 

[shannondurst]

The squealing noise stops at around 1500 psi, but there is still some noise and vibration on small line and if you listen close almost like a purging sound, I have already blown out that line if curious.

 

[JC-jetro]

The squealing noise stops at around 1500 psi, but there is still some noise and vibration on small line and if you listen close almost like a purging sound, I have already blown out that line if curious.

@ 1500 psi does 3 point pick up your implement? how about @ 1450 PSI? Do you have automotive stethoscope? check to see if the vibration comes from the pump , it might be pump gears that is driven from timing cover gear that might not be meshing well or gears are chewed up a bit. Did you examine both gears. That vibration can transfer thru the pump to the line. There might be also some reading error with you gauge due to calibration.

If it picks up what you need at 1500 psi or 100 psi less then I would be happy and would not mess with it much more.


JC,

Ps. Purging sound might be bubble of air caused by cavitation. I know you cleaned the screen but partial plugging of the inlet screen can do that. if the oil is not the right oil it might foam in the pump and that is also not very good. You did have Ford 134a compliant hyd oil, right?

 

[shannondurst]

Yes it picks up implement and holds it, the pump is new I hope there is not gear issue, yes hydraulic oil is compliant, there is no foaming or airiation when inspecting through the fill port, they dont offer a reseal kit anymore for the control valve , you think the control valve could be the issue? Thanks for the help I appreciate it sir.

 

[JC-jetro]

Yes it picks up implement and holds it, the pump is new I hope there is not gear issue, yes hydraulic oil is compliant, there is no foaming or airiation when inspecting through the fill port, they dont offer a reseal kit anymore for the control valve , you think the control valve could be the issue? Thanks for the help I appreciate it sir.

I can't tell you for sure! I am sure pump internal gears are ok. it is a positive displacement type of pump. it can destroy itself in a short time if the inlet is not flooded or dead headed. Pump attaches to the timing cover housing pretty firmly with aligning threaded stud so can't see it being installed cockeyed. You said pump is new. is it new to you, re-manufactured, brand new or you overhauled it? we know for sure the discharge pipe from pump to relief device is clean. Relief and it's component they all look good. It appears that your lift is working and you can raise and lower so your spool must be okay. Your lift cylinder seal must be good since it can carry the weight. Can it do it with engine off?

We're down to figuring out noise at the pump or lil after in the discharge pump. if you don't have stethoscope then use a piece of 1/2 PVC pipe and touch to the pump, timing cover and discharge pipe to see if you hear anything abnormal. At the end if it just picks your implement I would let it be. I might see how low low I can back out the adjustment to just lift and so expose the system to least pressure possible but still being able to pick up the implement. if spool is causing the pulsation you should be able to hear that by manipulating the arm.

JC,

 

[shannondurst]

Yes pump is new never used I purchased new like $500, I will look into the other troubleshooting that suggested. What's dead head that you had mentioned, I hope I didnt cause pump failure from the other repairs.

 

[JC-jetro]

Yes pump is new never used I purchased new like $500, I will look into the other troubleshooting that suggested. What's dead head that you had mentioned, I hope I didnt cause pump failure from the other repairs.

There are different types of pump with different design and use. A centrifugal pump has an impeller. If the fluid is available at the suction volute it kind of grabs the water and slings it out (adding in Kinematic energy/velocity to it) if the intake is closed/blocked it will cause cavitation or if the discharge is closed it dead heads but impeller continues to spin and that energy will just boils off the liquid such as water. In a case of positive displacement pump , such as gear pump it cannot have a closed discharge as the pressure does not have anywhere to go unless it has an over pressure relief internally or externally. Dead heading is kind of having good intake valve in a piston that opens and closes OK but discharge/exhaust valve is totally closed and fused to the head. when piston comes up against the closed valve. Air is compressible but not liquid. So in a pump that transfers liquid something has to give and that always comes in the form of damage to some component. I hope my rambling made sense to you as it is passed my bed time.

Gear pump - Wikipedia

 

[shannondurst]

Yes sir thank you

 

[stevewatr]

Rather than start a new thread, I figure I'd try and revive this one with my problem.

My Ford 1920 (Shabura) tractor 3 point hydraulic lift has a ghost in the machine.

When it works, it has no problem lifting a heavy brush hog, and I do not have any issues with jerky lifting, or sudden dropping. The knob in front of the seat that controls rate of fall work perfectly.

Several times now I have encountered a strange issue where the lift 100% stops working. This never happens when working the tractor, only with initial start up.

A couple times I found revving the engine "woke up the hydraulics".

I'm not positive, but I think cold weather is a common factor when this occurs.

And when I say it doesn't work, I mean nada, zilch, zip. lift lever moves easily and has no effect. And since it is at startup, the impliment is on the ground, so there is no weight on the arms (I always lower the impliment when done for the day)

Well the intermittant issue has apparently decided to stay broken.

Fluid level is good, no strange noises as far as I can tell over the diesel noise.

Could a failing cylinder seal start off with intermittant failure like this? Or would a sticking relief valve be more likely?

 

[JC-jetro]

The cylinder head for he lift system has a main bypass back to the difffy. This thing has a stiff pressure and a ball check valve. That would work the same as relief pressure device on the pump discharge circuit before fluid is routed to lift spool on it's way to lift piston head. Those two areas can be suspect. Need to verify also when the system does not work if you have flow passed the spool. I had a ton of pics with this thread that was hosted on a another site rather here and it was lost due to not renewing the subscription. On the right hand of list cylinder head from driver position there is a cap that if you open can verify if the pump is actually working or not. I ended up overhauling my hyd pump that I am sure you can find info about it here at this Site.

JC

 

[stevewatr]

The cylinder head for he lift system has a main bypass back to the difffy. This thing has a stiff pressure and a ball check valve. That would work the same as relief pressure device on the pump discharge circuit before fluid is routed to lift spool on it's way to lift piston head. Those two areas can be suspect. Need to verify also when the system does not work if you have flow passed the spool. I had a ton of pics with this thread that was hosted on a another site rather here and it was lost due to not renewing the subscription. On the right hand of list cylinder head from driver position there is a cap that if you open can verify if the pump is actually working or not. I ended up overhauling my hyd pump that I am sure you can find info about it here at this Site.

JC

Thanks for getting back to me. I was wondering why all those photos did not load, too bad they were lost. I was already thinking my pump is probably okay, just based on the intermitant nature of the failure. My experience with hydraulic pumps is that they loose pressure over time as they wear, or have a catostrophic event they don't come back from.

Is the cap you mention under the seat mount? There is the fill cap to add fluid located at the rear between the lift arms, and a small cap with dipstick attached on the floor up towards the dash/cowl.

But it sounds like you mean something else?

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks for getting back to me. I was wondering why all those photos did not load, too bad they were lost. I was already thinking my pump is probably okay, just based on the intermitant nature of the failure. My experience with hydraulic pumps is that they loose pressure over time as they wear, or have a catostrophic event they don't come back from.

Is the cap you mention under the seat mount? There is the fill cap to add fluid located at the rear between the lift arms, and a small cap with dipstick attached on the floor up towards the dash/cowl.

But it sounds like you mean something else?

Howdy,
On the pump thing, if you run a positive displacement pump like a gear type dry then excess heat will destroy and wear the gears same as running an engine with no oil, however pump seal might be bad, worn out or destroyed where the pump will churn but no flow. That pump can be saved by a simple overhaul. I think I have those on this site and the pics did not get wiped out.

Pics below show the lift piston head on 1700. Please verify if yours is the same, I think all 1000 series use the same design. The one withe gauge is flow and pressure after the spool and the one on the opposite is over pressure relief to save the lift piston seal. Let's say you have something heavy hanging on 3 point and you are driving a rough terrain, if you hit the bump , that kinetic energy experienced by the lift arms will be added to the system pressure due to mechanical linkage between 3 point and lift arm. That would be an instantaneous over pressure that would be directed to diffy for safety saving the lift piston seal. If for whatever reason that check valve is not holding then flow would be diverted to diffy rather lift. That might be the issue. it will be a monumental task for me to go through entire thread and re-post all the pertinent pics. I hope that helped some.

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