Stupid Tractor Tricks

[Harv]

Well, I'm a little ashamed to tell this one, but maybe there will be some value to someone out there.

It's amazing how fast I went from the illusion of being a clever tractor fellow to feeling like I had the the IQ of a presidential candidate. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

I was basically putting my 'Bota through its paces, trying to clear and level some of the area around the house. There were a number of small trees left over from my dad's orchard which were pretty much dead and just getting in the way. I used them as guinea pigs for trying out some tractor tricks.

Knocking them over with the bucket was too easy and a little boring, so I thought I'd try some of that forbidden chain-lifting with the loader. I started with some of the large wooden stakes that I couldn't quite pull out by hand. I looped a chain and slip-hook around them and secured the other end to one of the grab-hooks bolted to the top of my bucket. They slipped right out of the ground like a wet bar of soap -- cool. /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

I then approached a small, mostly dead sapling just a couple of inches in diameter and hooked it up the same way. Since my bucket-mounted grab hooks are near the outer edges of the bucket, I had lined up the tractor so that the rightmost part of the bucket blade was almost touching the tree. After hooking up the chain, I casually sauntered over next to the loader control joystick where I could actuate the bucket and still have a good view of the sapling.

My attention was focused on the tree while I applied the hydraulics. It was one of those disorienting experiences where I knew the cylinders were moving, but the tree wasn't! It still hadn't quite registered what was happening, but I let go of the joystick 'cuz something felt terribly wrong. And I was right!

When I looked at the tractor I was standing next to I realized that the two left wheels were off the ground -- way off the ground! The whole dang thing was tipping towards me and had already exceeded that 15 degree safety margin I was usually so watchful of!

I'm not sure which happened first -- my mad dash to safety or the soiling of my pants. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

I'm sure if my heart rate was closer to normal I would have had the presence of mind to go for the camera while the tractor stood poised like a dog at a fire hydrant, but instead I slowly approached the machine once again (being careful no to startle it), and, while concentrating very hard on which way to push the joy stick, I gingerly lowered it back to the ground.

Thankful that no one had seen this episode, I then re-aligned the tractor dead center on the tree, slid my bucket forks to sandwich it in, and then wrapped the chain around them. This time all went as planned and the tree came right up. I was amazed at how pitiful the root system was that nearly toppled my mighty 'L' (see attachment).

I learned a number of lessons here, but I will ask one general question -- is it common practice to work the loader controls while standing next to the tractor? I find myself doing this quite a bit, but now I'm wondering if my IQ is still in question. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[TomG]

Yep, that's a violation of one of the most basic safety rules. It's also one of the most violated and one responsible for many accidents. It's also easy to sit an implement down on your foot or pinch off a finger with the 3ph lever or forget the PTO is running. On many tractors it's also possible to bump the tractor into gear and have it lurch or run off and take out what ever it hits. It's fortunate that some learning happened through a scare rather than an accident or equipment damage.

That particular rule heads many safety don't's lists, and may be printed in some owner's manuals. Never the less it's something commonly done, but most commonly for the purpose of making adjustments. I'd guess that far fewer people attempt actual work from the side of a tractor, and I'm not one of them.

 

[john4nh]

Another highly violated basic safety rule is operating the back-hoe from the ground. I know many of you have one, and I have an old 580 that typically when Iam greasing i operate it from the ground. But like yall said you should always do everything from the seat..

 

[Thomas]

Harv,
Whew..glad your okay my friend !!

One never knows when it comes to cutting down trees or removing them such as you did.

My stupid tractor trick was last fall when I used my FEL to try and knock down a big wasp nest,and to my surprise there was somebody home /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif ouch ouch and I mean that!

Thats how we learn from our lessons.

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[roysallis]

Harv, I'm glad you got the situation under control before anything bad happened. It looks like you have learned a couple of valuable lessons. I have never operated the FEL without being on the tractor but I have pulled up fence posts with the chain attached to the corner of the bucket. One time I had a rear wheel come off the ground while doing this and I quickly learned to lift only from the center of the bucket, even if it takes more time to manuever to this position. I like the idea of using the forks the way you did. I wish I had some for my FEL. Continue to be careful.

 

[Bird]

Yep, Harv, I've been there and done that./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif It can get exciting, can't it? I don't often operate the front end loader without being on the tractor and having whatever I'm lifting or pulling centered, but I drive steel stakes in the ground to mark the ends of the rows in the garden, and leave the stakes at one end all summer to serve as guides through which I can pull a garden hose for watering without dragging it over any of the plants. In the Fall, if the ground's dry, I have to use the front end loader to pull them, and I do it without getting on and off the tractor; I just operate that lever very gently.

Bird

 

[dmccarty]

Harv, just so you don't feel to dumb, I'll share my own Stupid Tractor Trick.

I was and I'm still trying to get this 24 inch diameter stump out of the ground. I dug a trench 2 feet deep all the way around the root ball which is about 5 feet in diameter. The backhoe can't even budge this thing. If I get the FEL under the ball, the FEL just sits there as does the stump. No movement at all. Nada, nothing, zilch. I mean not a spec of bone dry dust moves.

So what do I do next besides heavier equipment or something that goes boom?

I grab some chains, it acutally took two chains to hook the stump to the tractor. One change went around the stump, and it barely wrapped the stump. I think that was a 16 foot long chain. Then another chain went from stump to tractor.

And here is what I did wrong. I had a box blade on the back of the tractor. To get the chain to the draw bar the easiest and fastest thing to do would be to reach under the box blade as it hung in the air. Hmmm, I DONT like that idea, seems like a real good way to lose and arm or part there off. Hmmm, ok, I'm not supposed to do this but lets just hook the chain around the top of the box blade that attaches to the 3PH top link.

Do you see WHY this is a really bad idea? I did keep me from reaching UNDER a raised box blade but....

So I make my attachments, lower the box blade so it is real close to the ground. I KNOW I'm not doing things QUITE right but lets give it a go. With the tractor in A range and first gear off we go. Well, Off being the front wheels trying to leave the ground. Thankfully, the box blade stopped my tractor movement, at least I had thought that far in advance. Nothing had moved expect the fore/aft shift of the tractor and my bowels.

All this took a split second and as soon as I felt the tractor move in this very unnatural manner, throttles got moved to idle and gears put into neutral real, Real, REAL fast!



After my heart rate returned to somewhat normal I did what I should have done in the first place. With the box blade on the ground, I attached the chain to the drawbar and looped the rest of the chain away from the box blade. When the tractor move forward the chain pulled under the box blade.

But the stump still did not move.... 8-( Nada, nothing, zilch.

To remove the chain safely I just reversed the tractor until I had enough slack in the chain to move it to the side of the box blade. Then I could lower the implement and remove the chain safely.

Hopefully this remind people to use the drawbar. I was trying to do the safe thing but end up doing a not safe thing. At least I realized what could happen and put the box blade into position to prevent anything bad from happening except another pair of Fruit Of the Looms being ruined!

Hope this helps....
Dan NotTopseyTurvey McCarty

 

[Richard]

Dan, I’m certainly no expert, and am sure others here have vastly more experience than I, probably even you (having more experience than I) That disclaimer said and not knowing what kind of tree your trying to uproot, I’ve been doing similar on specifically pine and a few cedars. What I found at times, when digging the stump is I had do dig in vicinity of 6 feet down on two of them go finally get them out. It was my first attempt ever at digging a stump and I was using rented L-35 so my experience was as you said, zilch. I was amazed at how deep I had to dig and all the while the stump would either not budge or near the end, would wobble some from side to side. Finally, I accidentally got the hoe hooked on stump and was pulling straight UP as opposed to pushing/pulling sideways and just like a cork, the stump popped right out. (This was after timidly digging for 3 hours so I had quite a hole) Now that I better understand how far that tap root might go (and having Brutus), I just aggressively dig in and can usually get my stumps out in 15/20 minutes. For perspective, in my back yard, I’ve so far cut/pushed maybe 50 mature (tall) pine trees and a handful of cedar and dug up maybe 20 stumps of those trees. THANKFULLY after last night’s dropping (chainsaw) of 4 trees, I only have 5 more trees of immediate concern on my land. Then I’ll have a dozen or so on the border of uncle in laws land that could hit my house if they fell. After that, I’ll sleep soundly.

 

[dmccarty]

The PineStump that is arguing with me does not appear to have a tap root. I look at root balls that have been uprooted during our previous Hurricanes/Storms to get an idea of what I'm dealing with. There is another pine root ball that came down in our big snow storm last year and it does NOT have a tap root. The PineStump That Argues has the same size stump and root ball. The depth of the root ball matches the one downed by the snow.

I went through the area that was all pine and all of those trees seemed to have tap roots. Those trees are 1000 feet away from the one in question. I have lifted stumps with tap roots from the ground as you did. Its kinda neat!

This stump really has 5 feet of roots that are about 2 feet deep. I have a trench about 3 feet deep all around the stump but "hooking" they backhoe to it does absolutely nothing. And I mean nothing. 8-(

I got off the phone with a Explosives guy a bit ago and they don't do stumps. Only rocks. So I have more phone calls to make... The Arguing Stump is going to leave. Its just a question of how, time, money, and when!

I have some oak stumps I'm finally going after this weekend, at least if the ground has dried out a bit. I'm hoping they will come out fairly easily since they have much shallower roots. I'm gonna find out one way or another!

Later...
Dan

 

[Harv]

Dan -

Thanks for sharing your story. It doesn't make me feel any less dumb, but it helps to know that others have had their moments. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

BTW - I was advised to leave my drawbar off the tractor when I have a 3-pt implement attached. Can't remember the reason given. Have you noticed any problem?

Ever since my little faux pas I keep the thinking of the axiom, "live and learn". It occurs to me now that it is crucial to achieve the former before you can benefit from the latter.

 

[dmccarty]

Your last paragraph is EXACTLY what I think when I read some of these stories. Or live through a story!

The only problem I can see with having my drawbar in place is when I put on the backhoe. Certainly with the box blade there are no clearence problems and I can't think of one with the rotary cutter either.

I'll have to check my manual to see if they say when to remove the drawbar. I know it has a couple of different positions depending on load and one for "storage".

BTW, I think we all have our moments on a tractor, car, chainsaw, or whatever equipment that can hurt you bad and fast. My first Stupid Tractor Trick was on a MF 135 when I was 16. I was parked on a access road that was above the field I was about to mow. The road was about 3 feet higher than the field at that point. I put my foot on the brakes and started the tractor. It was either already in gear or I put it in gear and released the clutch. At that point the tractor made an very sharp and immediate left turn down into the field off the road. Scared me and my boss. Go get two pairs of FruitOfTheLooms from the box please!

What had happened was that my foot was not fully on BOTH brakes AND the lock lever had popped up so that the right brake was NOT engaged. So the tractor went in gear and I did a very pretty and very fast brake turn off the road and into the field. It happened in a second.

Guess what. I'm very **** about the brake lock lever fully engaging the right brake on my JD 4700. And this is why!

We really should have a series of Stupid Tractor Tricks. Start numbering them at 1 and go on forever. I think most people learn from these sorts of stories. I know I'll be working and will think about doing something but then think better of my idea when I remember what someone else had done.

It sure helps me stay out of trouble.

Later...
Dan

 

[Richard]

Dan, you say you have dug a trenchy 3 feet deep all around the stump. Have you cleared out "under" the stump? That's what I have found I have to do to help. Seems as long as the stump is "sitting" on dirt, as opposed to trying to dig under it, the stump can be a bear. I don't want to sound like I know more than you, (you DO own a JD don't you) /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif seriously though, what I've learned is until I can see all of the roots, I have no idea of what's there and further, if it is the Gibralter you infer, obviously there is something holding it. Maybe it is the Dark Side of the force working on trees behalf?? /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Richard

 

[john4nh]

Dan, you might want to try and dig deeper all the way around the stump. Then when you put your stablizers down only extend one all the way down the other just enough to stablize the tractor then with the bucket try to under mine the stump. This is a little akward for a novice but it sounds like you are used to your machine. We have done this with a few large pine stumps w/ tap roots, using a 580 case. If I didnt explain well let me know and I will try to explain it more in detail.. Other then this hard-headed stump sounds like you got it..

 

[dmccarty]

Well, since I do have a JD, I HAVE to be smarter than the Blues and Orange types! And of course that is just the problem. I really did not understand what was going on until you hit on it. Its Jealousy against Green! Yeah, Thats it! Thats The Ticket. All the non Greenies out there are sitting there thinking, "Stump Don't Move! Stump Don't Move!" And of course it does not!

I knew I was not paranoid! They ARE out to get me!

From what I can see on this stump, I have gotten all the roots extending away from the stump. The out of the ground stump that looks really similar, shows the roots ending at about 2 feet in the ground. But these are a knotted mass of roots. They are thick and coiled and go all over the place. I think that is what is holding this Gibralter Stump. Well that and those "Don't Move Stump!" DarkSide thoughts that are floating around the Internet!

My neighbor started building last week and I was thinking of having their site prep guy come over and take out the stump. But the ground was so wet I did not want them working. If they are still around and the ground is drier I might let them have at it on Friday.

They have a bulldozer and a backhoe. They are yellow not green but I won't hold that against them since they are John Deere!

Thanks!
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

John, you have hit the problem right on the head. I need to dig out from under the stump but I have not really figured out how to do so safely. The JD48 hoe is just physically to small to reach OVER the stump to get to the other side of the root ball.

Hmmmmm, but you did just put a bee in my bonnet. I have been backing the tractor with the stump centered with the stump. I think I might be able to offset so that I might be able to dig under the stump. I knew this was the problem I just have not figure out how to beat it. I dug a ramp into the trench so I could get my FEL under the Gibralter Stump and nothing and I mean nothing moved. I was impressed because the FEL has really done some work and to see it do NOTHING was interesting.

I think a 580 would move this thing. I looked at the specs on the 580 vs the JD48 backhoe and the 580 was 2 to 3 times the backhoe from what I could see. One thing that the 48 has done is educate me on back hoe control so if I have to rent a full size unit one day I won't be wasting my time learning how to run the the hoe.

If my truck gets out of the shop this week, I'll go after the stump on Friday.

Thanks for the ideas!
Dan

 

[john4nh]

Dan Humm sound like youve approached at some pretty good angles.. I like the ramp, thats a pro move.. I guess from your description the stump is "tall" if its not too tall meaning what was left from the tree being cut. You could push your dirt back in on one side and straddle the stump (height allowing) with your back hoe and dig straight down. When you get the bucket straight down from where you are sitting you should be able to actually dig under your back hoe. This is used on the yellow equip to dig under pipelines etc. I do not know for any certainity that the one you have is capable of this but if it is, this would allow you to again undermine this gibralter size stump.. But Iam thinking it is probally to high to straddle and to much of a pain to cut down to grade.. Just some ideals.. Oh and if you do hire somebody just out of curosity would you mind posting what they charge for it.. Oh I dont know if you got pics or not but it sounds pretty interesting, Would like to see it.

 

[Richard]

Dan, When I had my Stump of Gibralter and was trying to dig "under" it (that sounds rather strange 'coz if you could dig "under" it, it shouldn't be held down) anyway, I would take the hoe bucket and get it near the stump and "flicker" the bucket back and forth to break away as much dirt as I could. Sometimes my angle didn't allow me to come directly at the area and space precluded me from moving the machine, so the flapping of the bucket using the outermost tooth to break away the dirt helped some.

I had never EVEN THOUGHT of digging down some to that I could bring loader into equation. Guess that WAS a pretty bright idea /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I just kept digging and digging and digging....(and digging...) just like a little single minded bulldog.

 

[dmccarty]

Hi John,

I have thought of straddling the stump. I have avoided that because I'm not sure how much stability I'm going to have when I fill the trenches back up. The pine is cut fairly close to the ground but with the settling that is going to happen with filling the trenches I might have a problem with the tractor clearing the top of the stump.

But what I just learned from you post, I really should try to straddle a stump to dig out underneath before doing any other digging. That will solve my stability concerns. What I have been doing is centering the tractor near the stumps I have to dig out and having at it. This works just fine on little stumpettes but Gibralter Stumps apparently need a new approach. I think digging under the stump first on a couple sides before trenching around the stump will work better for my equipment.

I really should take some pictures and scan them. If I can remember to take my camera out this weekend I'll try to take some pictures of what I'm up to and against! I looked into getting a digital camera but they cost more than I was willing to pay. They were close to half the cost of the tractor armour kit I need to buy!

Visuallize a 24 inch pine stump a couple of inches above grade with a five foot root ball that looks to be 2 feet thick surrounded by a moat three feet thick. The moat after all the rain we had last week has a wee bit of water in it. To get to the moat you had to cross the mountains of dirt two to three feet tall except for the passes I used for my attack on the Stump Gibralter. I never realized until now that I've subconciously been building castles out of clay and stumps!

Who needs sand and a beach when you have a tractor!

If I can get these guys after the stump(s) I'll post the cost.

I really need to figure out how to dig these beasts out of the ground. I have hundreds to do. The average size is 15-16 inches in diameter and those are pines. I have about 6 oak stumps that are 36+ inches that have to come out as well. Those are on my house site but I have a few of these large ones here and there around the property.

Thanks!
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Hi Richard,

I tried to do the flick trick but the stump and the moat I dug makes the distances to large for the my back hoe. I think that is my real lesson from this conversation. Large stumps have to be straddled to dig under them before trenching.

I guess if I have stability problems after filling in the trench I can always throw some timber down to firm things up. I have plenty of that to use.

At least that is my new theory that I will try out ASAP!

Thanks,
Dan

 

[ejb]

Harv...I haven't read thru the many replies to your question, so maybe it has already been covered, but I think you are missing the point...the mistake you made wasn't that you were operating the loader from the ground (I do that all the time), the mistake you made was trying to lift from the side of your bucket...the fact that you were standing next to the tractor isn't what made your tractor tip, even if you were sitting in the seat, it would have tipped the same way...the trick is to not tip it over no matter where you operate the loader from.

Be careful.

PS: I have done similar stupid things when I first got my tractor...experience is a tough teacher...it gives the test first and the lesson afterwards...



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ejb on 11/29/00 04:06 PM.</FONT></P>