16LA Loader- what am I doing wrong

jinman · May 22, 2008

Flatheadyoungin said:
I think I've asked this before but the title of the thread probably didn't help.

On my FEL and on my BH, I can only do one movement at a time. I have a TC45 shuttle. I have 4 hyd. hookups in the front for the FEL. There is a single hookup under the belly of tractor. There is a single above the rear axle and there are 4 more quick connects at the rear. Am I using the wrong ones?

A friend of mine has a TC35 hydro and I jumped on it again the other day just to see if his would do two motions, and it did.

Sure this thing will do two things at once......

HELP!!

Think of a hose with a "Y" connection in it and two nozzles on the end of the "Y". If you open one nozzle, you get full pressure and flow. If you open both nozzles and the length of the hoses are equal and the nozzles open exactly the same, you will get about the same flow as before (total gpm) if you add the flow from both nozzles, but either nozzle will only have half the pressure. Are you with me?

Okay, lets say that this is a magic "Y" in this hose so that the left nozzle when open also closes off the nozzle on the right. Even if you have the right nozzle going full blast, when you open the left nozzle, it sprays and cuts off the right nozzle. The more the left nozzle opens, the more the right nozzle is turned off. Still with me?

Lets talk FEL loader double spool valve (joystick valve). To make a comparison to my hose example, the bucket curl is the "left nozzle" and the bucket raise is the "right nozzle." If we can get them both open equally and all things are equal, they will both operate, but each with half flow and half pressure. But like two nozzles running on a hose, if I reach up and put my thumb over the end of one nozzle, it's flow stops and the other one spurts all the water. Now back to the FEL. If there is equal pressure to both curl and lift, then the resistance must be equal for both to operate at the same speed. If it takes significantly more pressure to raise than to curl, then you will see much more curl.

Finally, your double spool loader valve is like that "magic Y" adapter. Because the curl spool is first in line to the hydraulic flow, it can shut off all flow to the lift spool if it is opened all the way up. The more you open it, the more you cut off fluid to the lift spool. As a matter of fact, all other hydraulic actions on your tractor are preceded by the curl spool. (I could be wrong about the BH, but I don't think so.) I know that your 3PH and single rear remotes will not operate because all the hydraulic pressure and flow is going to the curl spool if you have it wide open. It's first in line, so it has ultimate control.

Now, why does your friends TC35D and many others of us have dual motion? It's probably a case of how well broke-in our valves are and how we have learned to feel and feather the controls. You also did not tell us the exact conditions under which you tried your friend's loader. Was the bucket empty. Has yours been empty? I would suggest putting a small load into the bucket and then trying to learn the feel of your joystick. The load in the bucket will provide a backpressure load to the lift spool if you don't open the valve too far. That should cause both axes to operate at the same time. Though, like my buddy mikim said, it ain't gonna be too fast. It can't be because you are splitting your flow between those two sides of the "Y".

Is anybody still awake, or have I put everyone to sleep as usual?

MikePA · May 23, 2008

Flatheadyoungin said:
It's REALLY aggravating! What RPM are you running?
What tractor do you have?

TC25D, 7308 FEL, 2,500 rpm

Flatheadyoungin · May 23, 2008

Mine does it under load or empty (I usually run lower RPMS- I'll try higer next time)

I tried my buddy's empty and mine empty. His tractor has seen a lot rougher life and probably more lifting but they have about the same hours on them. I didn't have to finesse his at all, I could feel the difference right away.

I'd be willing to buy the controls like his- the FEL control looks different on a hydro vs. a gear....don't know if they are different underneath the box or not.

I'll sure be hard to dig a flat bottom trench with the BH like this.....

jinman said:
Think of a hose with a "Y" connection in it and two nozzles on the end of the "Y". If you open one nozzle, you get full pressure and flow. If you open both nozzles and the length of the hoses are equal and the nozzles open exactly the same, you will get about the same flow as before (total gpm) if you add the flow from both nozzles, but either nozzle will only have half the pressure. Are you with me?

Okay, lets say that this is a magic "Y" in this hose so that the left nozzle when open also closes off the nozzle on the right. Even if you have the right nozzle going full blast, when you open the left nozzle, it sprays and cuts off the right nozzle. The more the left nozzle opens, the more the right nozzle is turned off. Still with me?

Lets talk FEL loader double spool valve (joystick valve). To make a comparison to my hose example, the bucket curl is the "left nozzle" and the bucket raise is the "right nozzle." If we can get them both open equally and all things are equal, they will both operate, but each with half flow and half pressure. But like two nozzles running on a hose, if I reach up and put my thumb over the end of one nozzle, it's flow stops and the other one spurts all the water. Now back to the FEL. If there is equal pressure to both curl and lift, then the resistance must be equal for both to operate at the same speed. If it takes significantly more pressure to raise than to curl, then you will see much more curl.

Finally, your double spool loader valve is like that "magic Y" adapter. Because the curl spool is first in line to the hydraulic flow, it can shut off all flow to the lift spool if it is opened all the way up. The more you open it, the more you cut off fluid to the lift spool. As a matter of fact, all other hydraulic actions on your tractor are preceded by the curl spool. (I could be wrong about the BH, but I don't think so.) I know that your 3PH and single rear remotes will not operate because all the hydraulic pressure and flow is going to the curl spool if you have it wide open. It's first in line, so it has ultimate control.

Now, why does your friends TC35D and many others of us have dual motion? It's probably a case of how well broke-in our valves are and how we have learned to feel and feather the controls. You also did not tell us the exact conditions under which you tried your friend's loader. Was the bucket empty. Has yours been empty? I would suggest putting a small load into the bucket and then trying to learn the feel of your joystick. The load in the bucket will provide a backpressure load to the lift spool if you don't open the valve too far. That should cause both axes to operate at the same time. Though, like my buddy mikim said, it ain't gonna be too fast. It can't be because you are splitting your flow between those two sides of the "Y".

Is anybody still awake, or have I put everyone to sleep as usual?

jinman · May 23, 2008

Flatheadyoungin said:
I'll sure be hard to dig a flat bottom trench with the BH like this.....

I would definitely try the loader at 2000+ rpm, but don't expect it to work like an industrial backhoe. Your tractor has about 9 gpm maximum flow. A full-sized LBH has a hydraulic system that pumps 35-45 gpm and can have multiple spools in parallel rather than your system that uses what is essentially serially connected spools.

My books all show the shuttle shift tractor as having the same dual-spool valve as the hydro models. Unless NH changed the valve on later tractors, I would expect that to be the case with your tractor. I just think the hydraulic flow on a compact tractor will never give anywhere near the performance of a machine with super hydraulic flow and the ability to lift 3-1/2 tons or more with it's FEL.