1920 engine running in reverse

[Chris_VA]

Guys,

Twice in the last few months, I've had the engine on my dad's 1920 start turning backwards. Both times I was using the loader and almost stalled out and just as it started to die, it started running backwards. I know this is the case because I was getting exhaust blowing out the front and the reverser (shuttle shift) worked backwards. I shut down immediately and there is no apparent damage.

I thought all modern day diesels had something internal to prevent this???

Just curious if anyone else has this problem.

Thanks
Chris

 

[IH3444]

I have heard of this happening before. You are lugging the engine down entirely too much, I have a TC48, which is a 2120 just in better clothes, and I never have needed to lug the engine down that low, to cause it to possibly get a chance to run backwards. Adjust you operator's habits, use a lower gear, throttle it up more, learn to curl the bucket while raising the boom when in a pile....... .

 

[DieselPower]

Sure it can happen on some newer engines. What is happening is just as the engine stall's there is enough reverse force to start spinning the engine backwards. It has even been known to happen when starting a engine. Let off of the starter switch, engine starts to recoil backwards and boom. Doesn't run to good in reverse but it will run. As IH3444 said, use lower gear, throttle up and bucket use technique.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

It does happen, just not to often. The biggest concern is that the oil pump is also running backwards pumping the oil back into the pan and not to the bearings. Like the others said use a lower gear, When you bog a motor down that far you are stressing a lot of parts.

 

[Chris_VA]

Adjust you operator's habits, use a lower gear, throttle it up more, learn to curl the bucket while raising the boom when in a pile....... .

Duh, you think?

No, I intended to have this happen. I liked the idea of pulling soot back into the engine, sucking the oil out, having to stop and restart. That is some efficient operation, right? I'm not sure how a "pile" came into play. I was attempting to lift a downed tree up so I could saw it up. My foot was muddy and slipped off of the clutch (thanks in advance for explaining the dangers of muddy feet to me). By the time I got back to the clutch, it had almost died, but I clutched it again. I should have just let it die. I guess you guys have never stalled out before. I"m impressed...

Now, back to my "question".

Do modern day diesels have something to prevent this? Yes, most do. I called the local Massie and Deere dealers late yesterday and their shop guys told me that as far as they know, all of their machines have a "one way drive" on the injection pump to prevent it from running backwards. They also said they feel sure most all Case/IH machines have this as well. Pretty standard, 40 year old technology. Thus, I assume, the engine would not start or run. I'm going to call the NH dealer on Monday to see if this is common on their machines or if the new ones won't do it.

I've been working with equipment for 30 years and have never had this happen, so I was curious. And guess what??? In that 30 years, I have actually stalled a machine. Can you believe it! I know, I should turn in my license.

Chris

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

What happens when a it starts running backward is the engine starts burning oil insted of deisel fuel.This usualy only happens with engines that use alot of oil. It either sucks the oil past the rings or through the valve guides. If you would have given a little more info. in your original post you wouldn't have gotten the obvious responces that insulted your operating abilities.

 

[RickB]

The camshaft lobe profile is designed to prevent engines from runnning backwards. Results vary; some will, some won't. I'd be interested to read specific examples of machines with one way injection pump drives; that's a new one on me. Current production CaseIH equipment is mostly common platform with NH equipment and so far as I know anything with Blue paint on it has a positive drive for the injection pump. Ditto for dozens of Deere and IH models I am familiar with. I think the guys you talked to are blowing more smoke than the 1920. The root cause of the "problem" with your Dad's 1920 is operator failure whether intended or not; whether you agree or not. No need to cop such an attitude about 3 accurate replies.

 

[DieselMonk]

Had a VW Golf TDI doing that a few times also my old MF 165. My new Passat TDI never done that yet.

 

[Chris_VA]

I asked 2 questions if you look at my post. I did not get an answer at first to either one. I never asked what caused it. I know THAT answer and never once blamed the machine for my mistake. What amazes me is the advice given to questions never asked. Yes, if you come out of the gate on my behind for something so obvious, then I might take a little offense. I'm sure it takes less effort to do that than try to give me some explanation to my question.

Why offer more info in my post when I had a simple question to ask? does not matter how it happened. I think it is obvious I hauled the engine down too low and clutched it at the wrong time (as a matter of fact I think I partly stated that at first). I assumed that was common knowledge.

I still do not know the answer. I am hearing different possible thoughts. I honestly just wanted to discuss it with my peers.

While a Deere man myself, I have gotten good advise here for dad in the past. Can't say the same for this one, although we were getting a little closer there in the end, minus the same "attitude" you are accusing me of. I will leave you now in peace.

Thanks Dieselmonk. I have not heard of a vehicle engine doing it. This must be a more common problem than I thought. Thanks again for the answer.

Merry Christmas.

chris

 

[whitetiger]

Guys,

Twice in the last few months, I've had the engine on my dad's 1920 start turning backwards. Both times I was using the loader and almost stalled out and just as it started to die, it started running backwards. I know this is the case because I was getting exhaust blowing out the front and the reverser (shuttle shift) worked backwards. I shut down immediately and there is no apparent damage.

I thought all modern day diesels had something internal to prevent this???

Just curious if anyone else has this problem.

Thanks
Chris

The answer to your question is no, there is nothing internal in modern day mech pumps to prevent this. Their is no such thing as "one way injection pump drive" on any ag engine.
Their are a few electronic fueled engines which have no injection pumps such as CNH Cursur (sp) engines that are used in large platform combines and a field chopper. The have a high pressure electric pump on each injector.

 

[DieselMonk]

The have a high pressure electric pump on each injector.

Thats the difference between my old 02 Golf TDI and my 05 Passat TDI. The Passat has the "Pump Duese" a pump sitting right on top of every injector (built into the injector). The Golf had an Bosch fuel pump. BTW. Those times the Golf and the MF165 engines were working in reverse was when I started it and din't let it crank over long enough. When the TDI engine was running in reverse, it was shaking like mad. The MF165 was running smoother reverse. LOL Not that I really wanted them to run in reverse, but they did anyways.

 

[Soundguy]

I have to agree with the others.. 1. Lose the attitude, 2. I've seen detroits syphon oil and such seals in to run when fuel was cut off.. and choke plates slapped down..

Soundguy

Duh, you think?

No, I intended to have this happen. I liked the idea of pulling soot back into the engine, sucking the oil out, having to stop and restart. That is some efficient operation, right? I'm not sure how a "pile" came into play. I was attempting to lift a downed tree up so I could saw it up. My foot was muddy and slipped off of the clutch (thanks in advance for explaining the dangers of muddy feet to me). By the time I got back to the clutch, it had almost died, but I clutched it again. I should have just let it die. I guess you guys have never stalled out before. I"m impressed...

Now, back to my "question".

Do modern day diesels have something to prevent this? Yes, most do. I called the local Massie and Deere dealers late yesterday and their shop guys told me that as far as they know, all of their machines have a "one way drive" on the injection pump to prevent it from running backwards. They also said they feel sure most all Case/IH machines have this as well. Pretty standard, 40 year old technology. Thus, I assume, the engine would not start or run. I'm going to call the NH dealer on Monday to see if this is common on their machines or if the new ones won't do it.

I've been working with equipment for 30 years and have never had this happen, so I was curious. And guess what??? In that 30 years, I have actually stalled a machine. Can you believe it! I know, I should turn in my license.

Chris

 

[kossetx]

Chris, While I do agree with loose the attitude, but mine is for different reasons.

It does you no good.

Here, like on most internet sites you may communicate on, there are MANY who chose to ignore the obvious and respond to what they want heard, or worse, what they want you to think they know. There are probably more of those type than people who actually understand what you are asking on any site. I've felt like you do many times. Mellow out and take each response, including this one, with a grain of salt. MP

 

[toddwulf]

I've stalled my 1920 plenty of times with just about every attachment except maybe the backhoe. Never got it to run in reverse but then I wasn't trying either. Now I know to keep an eye on it.

I think the folks that initially answered your question were just trying to help you understand how it CAN happen and perhaps how to avoid it. I didn't pickup on anyone dissing you and was actually surprised at your displeasure with what seems like helpful people just trying to help. People on this forum in general don't diss on operators.

Have a great Christmas.

 

[Doc_Bob]

People on this forum in general don't diss on operators.

Have a great Christmas.

That is my impression as well. TBN is a "low diss zone".
Bob

 

[ccsial]

as far as they know, all of their machines have a "one way drive" on the injection pump to prevent it from running backwards.

I would have to see this to believe it. It would have to be designed to not lose the timing when it slipped. I doubt they would go to that much trouble for a problem that seldom if ever occurs to most people.

The electronic fuel injected motors will not run backwards. That is just a software issue.

 

[JonL]

I think this happened to me last winter with my 1530. I was trying to get that last bit of power to pull a stump out with my 3pt winch, lugged down too hard, clutched just before the engine stalled. I noticed the oil light on, and could hear valve train noise and immediately shut down I promised my baby I would not work her beyond her design again. It restarted fine.

The advantage of sharing in this web site is helping others with our mistakes and sharing technical info. After reading this post, I realized what happened last year.