2 WAY RADIOS REQUIRE FCC LICENSE OR FINES

gws · Jan 12, 2006

(
That's the way I've read it explained on several sites - the only truely 'license free' radios are the FRS-only radios)

Tecnically FRS is a licensed radio service but the license in a function of the radio. The radio is licnsed to be used. Even FRS has limitation and rules. that need to be followed, license free doesnot mean rule free.

There are 3 "license free" radio services, FRS, CB and MURS.

FRS, 1/2watt UHF 14 channels.
CB , 5watt HF 40 channels
MURS, 2watt VHF 5 channel.

heehaw · Jan 14, 2006

just curious, do you "know" someone personally, that was fined?
heehaw

Jstpssng · Jan 14, 2006

Thank you for explaining the difference between the FRS and GMRS frequencies. We use radios to keep track of each other while working, but I've never paid attention to much more than the on/off switch; just last week I learned that my Rino GPS/Radio was GMRS capable. (When I switched it to GMRS a popup on the screen reminded me that a license was necessary.)
Radios are used up here on woods roads, to avoid unpleasant surprises; (i.e; 12 foot wide trucks, which always appear on curves /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif)
Many truckers have replaced their CBs with marine radios; THAT is a big no-no, and has resulted in complaints.
There is a push now toward the MURS radio, which they hated at first as the range is only about 5-10 miles in this area; but they're starting to get around that. A couple weeks ago I heard one person say that his was pushing 50 watts.

radioguy · Aug 18, 2014

I know this discussion is about 8 years old, but the topic is just as pertinent today.
I am the general manager of a two-way radio shop in Phoenix, AZ. who deals with FCC Licensing issues all the time. For some reason, many in today's "entitlement society" believe that they can just buy radios anywhere they choose and operate with impunity without a valid FCC license. This article quoted below accurately states that operation of GMRS radios without a GMRS license is strictly forbidden, is against FCC rules, and DOES carry draconian fines for violations.
The person posts that they want to know if anyone knows of anyone having been fined by the FCC, and the answer is a BIG "yes"! As a matter of public record, Scottsdale Lexus was ordered to forfeit $10,000.00 for using what we call "blister pack" radios (the GMRS/FRS radios sold by big box retailers) in the daily operation of their business.
The forfeiture order stemmed from three facts:
1) They blatantly ignored warnings in the packaging that came with the radios stating that an FCC license is required to operate these radios (IE: ignorance of the law is no excuse)
2) It is not only illegal to operate without a license, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for an entity (a business or an organization) to obtain a license because ONLY individuals and families are granted licensees under GMRS rules and therefore it would be impossible for Scottsdale Lexus to have obtained a license. and
3) Even if an individual (like the owner of the company) did receive a license it would still be illegal for the employees to talk on the radios under that license unless the employee was a member of the licensees family. Therefore each and every person having a GMRS radio to talk on would need their OWN license, and they still would be circumventing FCC rules regarding businesses operating in the business band portion of the radio spectrum.
The fact remains that many people decide it is worth the risk to violate the law because they might not get caught. This is very sad, to me as a person, as well as a radio man who takes pride in the lawful execution of my duty to provide efficient, effective and legal forms of radio communications to all my clients, whether they are a school district, factory, security company or farm.
What do you think of this?: I might not get caught running a combine through your field the night before you harvest, preventing you from taking in a part of the crop you toiled to grow, but should I do it? You might not get caught siphoning diesel out of your neighbors tractor, but does that make it permissible? I submit that the answer to both these questions is exactly the same as the answer to the questions: "Should I operate GMRS radios for my farm business?" and "Should I operate GMRS radios for personal use without a license?" - The answer is an emphatic NO!
I cannot make a commercial appeal on this forum, but I can offer my opinion. If you are using GMRS radios for your farm operation, with or without a license, STOP. Your farm is a business. That is how the FCC looks at it. Get licensed on the business band and purchase business band radios from a REPUTABLE local two-way radio dealer.
Why do I say "REPUTABLE" and "local" when mentioning two-way radio dealers? Because many two-way radio dealers across the country are capitalizing on the ignorance of the business customer and saying that they are selling them radios on "license-free" UHF frequencies (sometimes even putting them on repeater systems) and then supply them with commercial two-way radios programmed on the GMRS band. This is ILLEGAL and you should RUN - not walk - away from any dealer who would do this. In the same way, buying online is VERY risky. Why? Because online sellers of two-way radios do the same thing that disreputable brick-and-mortar dealers do, just to get the sale. It is unpopular to say "you need a license" or "we cannot sell to you unless you tell us your legally-licensed frequencies to program your radios on". They simply sell two-way radios to anyone and everyone and put them on any old channel they choose (many times the "default" channels which come programmed in the radio out of the box - these are intended for "testing" purposes only, NOT to ship with the radio) and they do NOT check to see if you even have a license nor do they encourage you go get one. RUN from these unscrupulous operations as well.
The FCC makes NO distinction. They don't care if you didn't know you needed a license and were sold radios by an unscrupulous radio dealer or a big box retailer. You are ultimately responsible for knowing what the legal requirements are before pushing that transmit button.
Here's a little "bonus nugget of information" for you: There ARE license-free business-band frequencies in the VHF spectrum called "MURS" (Multi-Use Radio Service) channels. The power is limited to 2-watts but you can legally hook them up to outside base and/or mobile antennas for greater range. Many people use these in areas where wide-open spaces exist along with the ability to put an antenna on a building (such as an out-building, farmhouse or barn). With an antenna on a building, the legal height above ground (60 feet above ground or 20 feet above the highest point on a structure, whichever is higher) you can talk anywhere you can see from the top of the antenna. How far can you see from the top of your farmhouse? (Pretty far, I would imagine.)
The bottom line is this: The cost of getting a business band license for your farm operation and buying "real" radios (instead of the "toy radios" - blister-pack radios - they sell at Target, Costco, Sam's Club, Farm and Fleet, Tractor Supply Co., Best Buy or your local hardware store) is WAY less than a $10,000.00 or more fine from the FCC.
Just don't risk it, please.
This is my first post, and I hope it was helpful. I welcome comments and questions.

3RRL said:
I came across an interesting thread in the Safety discussion about buying and using 2 way radios. If you haven't seen it, here's a link to it. TWO WAY RADIOS LINK It prompted me to ask these questions.

In the discussion there were several posters that noted an FCC radio license was required to use these and there were substantial penalties and jail time associated with the illegal use of these radios. Her's a quote from one of the posters: ( Just a reminder, FCC does indeed hand out fines up to $10K and jail sentences for individuals operating unlicensed radios...)

This really got my attention....!!!
I checked the instructions including a separate enclosure on orange paper and indeed it states ( "This radio operates on General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) frequencies and is subject to the Rules of the Fedral Communications Commission (FCC). The FCC requires the issuance of a radio license before operating on GMRS frequencies.") The licensing information goes on to say where you can get information about licenses http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/prs/genmbl.html and the orange enclosed leaflet also says this ( "When operating on Channels 1-7 or 15-22, this radio is using GMRS frequencies.")

With that in mind, here are my questions.

Has anyone (or know anyone) been put in jail or been fined for using these radios without the FCC license? Please share your experiences.

Does anyone have the FCC license and what did it take to get it? Apps, time, cost?

Does operating the radios on Channels 8-14 mean you DON'T need an FCC license? or what?

Does anyone operate these radios WITHOUT the FCC license and what is your experience?...Scary question now, huh? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Last, share how you feel about this subject and your personal experiences.
Thanks,

radioguy · Aug 18, 2014

Tell the person who was pushing 50 watts on MURS that this is totally and completely illegal. You CAN use a gain-type antenna to get better range, but NOT an amplifier to boost power.

radioguy · Aug 18, 2014

"...but there have been many reports of folks getting hassled by 'mall cops' or 'store security' (too cheap to buy the more appropriate radio equipment for their use) for being on "their" frequency." -
I have two comments about this. 1) If "mall cops" or "store security" are using GMRS radios for business purposes, that constitutes an illegal use of the band. 2) If they think ANY frequency is "their frequency" then they are just STUPID because nearly ALL radio frequencies are shared with SOMEONE (very few exceptions) but ESPECIALLY GMRS.

mikehaugen · Aug 18, 2014

Interesting this came up. I am maintenance in a factory and we use 2 way radios constantly. Never would have thought that the kenwood rep would give us radios if we needed a license for them, but now I'm questioning it. I'll have to check now.

k0ua · Aug 18, 2014

Yes, the FCC does sometimes hand out some really juicy fines. There have been a few rogue Amateur radio operators thru the years that have found that out also. About 2 or 3 a year out of 700,000 in the US.

Yes I have heard of some pretty good fines for illegally using GMRS also. Usually when asked to cease and desist, the offenders don't, because they have as you say an entitlement mentality. They don't understand the concepts of radio laws and why they exist. The proliferation of the Citizens Band radio service has done nothing to educate them. In fact it has helped to promulgate a nation of radio scofflaws. Then when the FRS and GMRS radio's came into existence, those little warning stickers fell on deaf ears of people who had been running kilowatt or multi-kilowatt amplifiers on the Citizens Band and operating in a totally illegal manner for decades.

murphy1244 · Aug 18, 2014

Just another Tax for us to pay.IMO

radioguy · Aug 18, 2014

A reputable two-way dealer, whether for a major brand like Kenwood, Icom, Vertex-Standard, Relm or even Motorola should ALWAYS check to be sure that:
1) The customer indeed has a valid FCC license for the intended operating frequency or frequencies
2) The license is not expired or about to expire
3) The emissions for which the user is licensed are current (IE: By January 01, 2013 every radio user in the business band was required to have their license modified for and was to be using narrowband emissions. Fines for not being "narrowbanded" by this date can be up to $12,500.00 PER DAY.) and accurate (analog, digital, fixed base, mobile, low-power, etc.)
4) The right number of radios, the correct location(s) of those radios and the proper contact information for renewals are properly specified.
5) The radios which the customer is using are operating ONLY on the frequencies for which they are licensed.
Any dealer who has not done these things AT A MINIMUM is putting your company at great unnecessary risk.
We run into these situations at my "day job" routinely, where customers have dealt with other dealers who just don't give a darn. The reprehensible practice of allowing customers to purchase radios without a license or with an improper license is shockingly widespread. Once we explain the situation, most customers are very appreciative and more than eager to "become legal". They all ask the same question: "Why would my previous dealer do this?" The answer is always the same: "Because they are unscrupulous and/or disreputable." EVERY two-way radio dealer who is in business KNOWS about these requirements. There is no excuse for putting their customers in great peril with the FCC especially when the fines are SO high and the cost of compliance is SO low. Good luck. Please keep me posted with what happens with your company.

mikehaugen said:
Interesting this came up. I am maintenance in a factory and we use 2 way radios constantly. Never would have thought that the kenwood rep would give us radios if we needed a license for them, but now I'm questioning it. I'll have to check now.