2008 Kubota L2800HST vs. 2009 Kioti CK30HST

perdurabo · Oct 15, 2008

I know there are lots of older threads about Kioti vs. Kubota, but there are a fair number of new variables to consider here.

I've been searching around for awhile for a decent price on a ~30HP 4x4 tractor package with loader, box blade and shredder. Ive got 23 acres in central Texas with a lot of scrubby small mesquite, cedar elm and yaupon that I need to have shredded, sprayed and controlled regularly to keep it usable (most <3" diameter, I plan to use a brush grubber to pull out the 3"-5" trees and rent a dozer one day for the big stuff that has to come out). I will need to use the loader fairly often for spreading road base and piling up the berm on my private rifle range. I'll need to use the box blade to keep my roads graded. A backhoe would be nice but the price on those is simply unjustifiable right now. I'd REALLY prefer to have an HST over a geared tractor as it makes loader work easier and to be honest as a novice I found that driving the geared tractor Ive tested somewhat confusing and difficult to operate whereas the HST tractor seemed to be much more intuitive to operate. You can make of that what you will but thats my personal preference until Im convinced otherwise.

Anyway, I was hoping to find a nice used tractor on craigslist, etc as the economy has gotten worse and desperate people are shedding relative luxury items for much cheaper than they were up until recently. I've got a significant amount of cash to put down on a used tractor but not enough to fully cover a brand new one. I then discovered that as of recently many of the tractor manufacturers are doing 0% financing for as much as 60 months on new tractors. This sounds quite tempting as a new tractor with a warranty and with no penalty to financing might be preferrable in the long run. So I decided that I would check out the major makers who have local dealerships.

Of the major tractor manufacturers, I have reputable local dealers of: Kubota, Mahindra, Kioti, New Holland and John Deere. I eliminated John Deere right off the bat as I know their pricing simply cannot be competitive and I eliminated Mahindra and New Holland as they can only offer 0% for 60 months on geared tractors in the 30HP range, not HST. The local Kubota dealership has the lions share of the local compact tractor market and carries quite a large stock. I went to them first looking for a deal on a used tractor but of course the salesman tried to talk me into a new tractor.. and I must admit I was tempted. Here is the package quote they offered me:

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L2800HST-F 29hp Diesel Tractor, 4wd, hydro. $11,708.39
LA463FL Kubota 60" FEL $3,416.61
160 - 5' Rhino 160 5' Shredder w/slip clutch $1,255.00
BB5 Armstrong Ag 5' Box Blade $495.00
Doc/UCC/Prep Fee $125.00
Free delivery to my site $0
Down Payment -$2,550.00
Total $14,450.00
Payments 0.00%/60mo $240.83/mo

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I like that they offer local implements instead of cheap Chinese Howse implements, but the pricing on the shredder seems pretty high to me, however the tractor package seems pretty good. Keep in mnd this is a 2008 L2800 not the new 2009 "Xtra Power" model. This dealer has a lot of last years stock on the lot so hes able to quote at last years prices. I test drove the L2800 and liked the HST drive and the control layout.

From reading older posts on this board I have gleaned that Kioti offers a more fully featured, heavier, and better arranged tractor than Kubota at a lower price, so I contacted the local Kioti dealer and got a quote on the comparable CK30HST. Well, when I got the quote back, I was shocked. Apparently Kioti raised their prices significantly as of Oct 1 and the dealer I spoke to had sold all of their 2008 models and could only order the much more expensive 2009s. Here's the Kioti quote:

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2009 model Kioti CK30hst Ag w/KL130P front loader $18,499
2008 model Rhino 160 w/slipclutch and chains $ 1,595
2008 model Armstrong Ag Box blade w/rippers $ 450
Free Delivery $ 0
Total Price $20,544.00
Discount (whatever that means) -$744.00
Package price $19,800.00
0% for 60 months w/2000 down $297.00/mo

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As you can see, Kioti can no longer really claim to offer their better product at a lower price than Kubota. I haven't test driven the Kioti yet but frm the research Ive done, it has a lt of very desirable features such as the telescoping hitch arms and a heavier chassis. Once again, the shredder price seems out of line. Even tough its local American made, I don't see why what is considered to be a light duty shredder should cost more than maybe $750 or so. I called another Kioti dealer in San Antonio, and they did offer me a 2008 CK30HST but the salesman seemed really sketchy, they would not offer me free delivery (I have a 3/4 ton truck, but don't own a flatbed trailer, dont want to buy one right now and don't want the hassle of renting one) and they seemed uninterested in working up a "apples to apples" comparison quote relative to the Kubota quote. Maybe they thought I was not a worthwhile customer or I wasn't worth the small commission. Anyway, this is what passes for a "quote" they sent me:

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CK30hst Kioti Package:
2008 30hp Kioti four wheel drive tractor with three range hydrostatic transmission, ag style tires, KL130 Kioti front end loader with 60 inch bucket, 5 foot brush hog/shredder(upgrade Landpride Shredder w/clutch), and a 5 foot box blade with ripper shanks(upgrade Landpride) with upgrade - Landpride quick hitch, and canopy top.

Special Package Price $19,195.00
Down payment $3000
0%/60mo $269.91/mo

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This "package" sounds like a decent price but they were somewhat difficult to work with and they haven't yet responded to my request to break out each item in the quote so i can know what their pricing on each is. Im not so sure I really need the canopy or the quick hitch, though that might be nice. If I do buy from these guys Im fairly sure I can get it warranty repaired at the much closer dealer #2 above, but something about the way these guys are making it difficult to get a quote or talk t me about my options is making me uncomfortable, despite their better price.

I plan to test drive the Kioti soon but I need to know what other factors I ought to consider. Both dealers #1 and #2 have a good reputation. Dealer #3 all I know is that they are the next closest Kioti dealer and can get me a cheaper 2008 CK30HST (ostensibly, we'll see once they send me a broken-ut quote - if they ever bother). I know that the criticism of the Kioti's KL130 loader having a problem with cracking is now moot as they have corrected that problem since the 2007 models. What other problems/concerns/considerations should I be aware of in the CK30HST given what I plan on using it for? What about the Kubota L2800HST? What kind of performance difference should I notice between them with regard to shredding, grading, and light dirt work? Should I consider just buying used implements elsewhere for cash? What would be he absolute optimal shredder and box blade implement brand/model choice for either the L2800HST or CK30HST, taking price into account as well as quality?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can provide.

perdurabo · Oct 15, 2008

Turns out there's a small Montana tractor dealer nearby as well. Montana also has a 0% for 60 months financing special. I got a quote on an R2844HST from them:

Montana R2844hst w/loader after rebates $16150
5' Montana shredder (no slip clutch) $800
6' woods box blade $600
Free delivery $0
Down payment -$2500
Total $15050
0%/60 mo $250.83/mo

That still doesnt beat the Kubota dealer but gives me another data point to look at. The Montana has the two-pedal HST like John Deere rather than the rocker pedal used by Kubota and Kioti, I havent used that before so I dont know whether thats a better feature or not. Opinions on Montana tractors seem to be sparse around here.

daBear · Oct 15, 2008

Well I can not give you much on anything but what I own which is the L2800HST and that is a mighty fine piece of equipment. I have bout 210 hours on mine without a problem. I am sure the other two are good, but the L2800 is great as far as I am concerned.

crashz · Oct 15, 2008

Sounds like the quotes come in about even. So your next step is to get your butt into the seats and try them out. Get a feel for backing up to an implement, working the loader and even loading a truck. I tried the L2800 HST and had my truck with me. So I pulled to the side with the tractor to simulate loading material into the bed with side boards, which my current 770 cannot do (to short). Couple things just to consider:

-A canopy is a great addition! Keeps the sun and rain off of you and allows you to operate the tractor much longer without turning into a raisin.

-A quick attach bucket will alow you to use forks and different buckets with your tractor. Its an absolute must on my next machine.

-A quick hitch for the three point hitch would be great for attaching rear implements. Its not top on my list, but I'm still relatively young and don't mind muscling things around.

-Tires are always a big discussion around here. Mine are the worst from my application. I have turfs, yet never travel on lawns or pavement. I would really like the stability and durability of R4s, as I don't need the super aggressive R1 ag tires. Mostly I need stability and puncture resistance. Try to guage what you'll need for tires by your application. For loader work and brush hogging, R4s and R1s will both work well for you.

RollingsFarms · Oct 15, 2008

i think the main reason for the substantial increase in 2009 tractor prices compared to 2008 is due to the rising cost of steel. i know it was going to be a 5% increase very soon on the model tractor i bought recently. as for the suprising costs of the light duty mowers you looked at, all i can say is that unless you get a CHEAP one, the prices you were quoted seem to be in order. Rhino is a good brand and make a quality mower so you're going to pay a little more then you would for any other brand alot of people aren't familiar with. i paid $2,200 for an MX6(JD's medium duty).

perdurabo · Oct 15, 2008

Do the "industrial" R4 tires actually have more puncture resistance than the R1 agricultural tires? I thought the difference between ag, turf, and industrial tires was just a matter of tread aggressiveness, not tire thickness. Out where I am I have a lot of loose sandy soil, but I also have a huge overabundance of thorny mesquite trees that will almost certainly puncture my tires eventually. I figured ag tires would be best since they have a taller tread and get better traction in sand.. or is that not the case?

Whats the best puncture seal product to put in your tires to help with mesquite thorn punctures?

crashz · Oct 15, 2008

I'm not sure of the ply rating between Ags and industrials, but the tread blocks are bigger and wider on the industrials, which to me, puts more rubber between the air inside the tire and the sharp objects on the ground.

Not sure about the tire choices for sand. The R4 might float on the top, but the R1 would give you that paddle tire effect.

George in Spokane · Oct 15, 2008

I have a Kioti and it's a fine tractor but considering the better resale value of a Kabota I'd go with it.

jbrumberg · Oct 16, 2008

I do not want to start another tire "war"

. But a tire's ply rating has alot to do with it's load carrying capacity with FEL operation, I am not sure if ply rating applies to puncture resistance as well. I have a higher ply rating than is usual for my R-1's. Jay

john_bud · Oct 17, 2008

Simple answer - buy the kubota.

Then simply spend the next 20-50 years operating it with no worries.

jb

PAB_OH · Oct 17, 2008

George in Spokane said:
I have a Kioti and it's a fine tractor but considering the better resale value of a Kabota I'd go with it.

I own a CK30 too and with the pricing you got, unless you NEED the weight (which can always be added to the 'bota) I'd get the Kubota.

As for tires, that is a loaded question. I have R1's on my machine and I had R2's on my previous grey Kubota. I have a set of R3's in the garage I'm going to sell. R4's GENERALLY have stiffer sidewalls and offer better puncture resistance.

perdurabo · Oct 17, 2008

The soil on my land is about 12" of fine dry sandy loam on top of relatively thick hard yellow clay. Do you think an L2800HST has the horsepower to plow it with a 4-5' disk plow/harrow? I know a 2-14 molderboard would be right out but from what Ive seen of the implements of the farmers around here, nobody uses anything but discs.

JiminGa · Oct 17, 2008

a 5 ft disc harrow is only going to cut about 6 inches deep, if you have 12 inches of sandy loom ontop of clay you'll never hit the clay.

Kyle_in_Tex · Oct 19, 2008

I drive near your place on the way to some friends in Kingsbury. How much of your 23 acres are you going to cultivate? The reason I ask is, I live on about 25 acres with a big pond and I have about 15 acres that are relatively open and another 8 that I mow in between the trees that could be called woods. I use a JD that is about the size you are considering for mowing the "tight stuff" which requires driving like a ferrari in and out of trees. The more open area is hayfield when we have rain and so I let a custom bailer come cut and bale it. BUT,,,,when I have to cut it myself(I like it to look decent),,,,I am so glad we have a bigger tractor (65HP). For 2 reasons, slightly bigger cutter, but mostly for the bigger front wheels and air ride seat that makes the bumps not so bad.

Not telling you what to do, I just think you would be happier in the long run with a bit more HP and a 6' cutter with that much land. If your budget is like mine, I totally understand why you are keeping costs down. The big tractor belongs to my FIL and I am so lucky he lets me use it. I do take care of maintenance for him.

I'll let the Kubota guys chime in as to what they recommend for your applications. I don't know the differences between a Grande L and an L2800. My buddy just bought an MX5100 I think its called. Its a nice machine but it hasn't been perfect. It had some internal oil seal\o-ring issue with the pto actuator. I've driven it and it seems very nice.

The Kioti dealer in Paige are good fair people.

I almost bought from Lanford, as I thought JD would be too high. I have to tell you that Jaegers here in Giddings and Bigon in Taylor are known for giving pretty decent deals. Much to my surprise, my tractor was quoted a bit cheaper than the grande L that I was comparing it to at the time. I read this forum and scrutinized the details for months. Its easy to get bogged down in the details and so I recommend you test drive and scrutinize the dealer....Good luck!

perdurabo · Oct 19, 2008

As a matter of fact I went by Paige tractor Saturday morning to test drive a CK30HST. Unfortunately they didn't have a single CK30 on the lot, HST or otherwise. They let me test drive a DK35HST which was a completely different animal. For one, it had the more john-deere-like dual pedal HST rather than the rocker pedal HST of the CK series and the Kubotas. I also really liked the electric PTO. I must say that it just plain makes more sense to have dual independent the brakes on the left and two HST pedals on the right. I dont understand why youd want both the brakes and the HST pedal on the left side at all and now that Ive tested a tractor with the dual HST pedals, Im thinking thats actually a better idea since you can rest your heel on the floor rather than having to keep picking it up and holding it up to move the rocker back and forth. I loved the DK35HST, but I'm afraid that was a bit out of my budget plus Kioti was only offering 0% financing on the CK30HST, the DK35 would have been something like 4% which is still too much for me. Its 0% or nothing.

I also test drive a Cub Cadet ex2900. It was one of the only smaller tractors with a two-pedal HST but for some really unfathomable reason, it has a mostly useless clutch pedal on the left and only a SINGLE brake on the right above the HST. No independent braking. Other than that it was a fairly nimble tractor that was rather fun to tool around on, but I thik it might be just a little underpowered and I dont like the really low loader and PTO lift capacities... though for some strange reason it claims to have 9.9GPM hydraulics where the Kubota L2800 is only 6.5GPM. The price was fantastic though. They had a combo special... EX2900 with loader, 5' box blade, 5' shredder, and trailer for $16,500 and 0% for 48 months. Very tempting but something tells me its just going to be too underpowered/light.

Who else besides Kioti and John Deere offers a tractor with a dual pedal HST on the right and dual independent brakes on the left with NO clutch? I still have yet to test drive the Kubota, and I'll likely do that sometime this week.

Kyle_in_Tex · Oct 20, 2008

perdurabo said:
For one, it had the more john-deere-like dual pedal HST rather than the rocker pedal HST of the CK series and the Kubotas. I also really liked the electric PTO. I must say that it just plain makes more sense to have dual independent the brakes on the left and two HST pedals on the right. I dont understand why youd want both the brakes and the HST pedal on the left side at all and now that Ive tested a tractor with the dual HST pedals, Im thinking thats actually a better idea since you can rest your heel on the floor rather than having to keep picking it up and holding it up to move the rocker back and forth.......
Who else besides Kioti and John Deere offers a tractor with a dual pedal HST on the right and dual independent brakes on the left with NO clutch? I still have yet to test drive the Kubota, and I'll likely do that sometime this week.

It's funny you picked up on this, I'll get beat up severely by the rocker pedal guys (which out number us dual pedal guys). But having dual independent brakes available for the left foot to help steer and avoid dangerous situations is just plain common sense and has been a standard on tractors as old as the dirt they plow. I think you need as much hp as you can afford.

New Holland makes dual pedal models. The folks in Lagrange at Kleibers are good people. Have you priced at Elk in Lagrange? they sell Kubota.

IslandTractor · Oct 20, 2008

One thing you have not mentioned in your deliberations (and have not experienced as you haven't had the chance to drive a CK30 yet) is that the CK30 really compares in features more to the L Grand series from Kubota such as a L3230 rather than the bare bones L2800. It has a bunch of nice features like a suspension seat, adjustable 3PT arms (I think I recall that correctly) etc. I don't recall if the Kubota now has operator station floor mounted FEL control but certainly that sort of thing is worth comparing too. Check out the webpages for a full list. Bottom line is that the two tractors are roughly comparable in horsepower but the extra "lux" features is some justification for the higher price on the CK. That said, some Kioti dealers seem to think that they don't need to discount. As you have seen that is wrong if they want to beat Kubota at the bottom line. You should expect just as great a percentage wise discount from the Kioti dealer as from the Kubota dealer (10% from list seems reasonable and more is not unheard of). Sounds like the first Kioti dealer just gave you a little more than 5% or so.

The Kubota's have been around longer and no one disputes their fine reputation. Kioti is doing just fine however just as other Korean manufacured mechanical goods are and the CK30 has been a very reliable and well liked tractor.

Gittyup · Oct 20, 2008

You said you had substantial cash to use. If so, then I'd be looking used. You can pick up a CK30 with loader and backhoe for around 14 - 15K with only a few hundred hours. I bought a new CK25 TLB. After purchasing, I wish I'd gone used. Probably find similar deals on L2800's too. but, stay away from the old KL130 loaders, unless deeply discounted to point that you can buy an new one.