2009 5600D engine problem

[DEWFPO]

I need help diagnosing a power issue on my 2009 Toolcat 5600D.

I know my way around gas engines pretty darn well and I've owned 2 diesel engines but have only done basic maintenance on the diesels so I am literally a novice when it comes to diagnosing diesel engine issues.

I apologize in advance for this being a long explanation but I wanted to give enough information.

- 5600D built in 2008, I am the original owner.
- unit only has 178 hours
- Engine oil and filters have been changed several times over the years. OE Bobcat filter and Amsoil diesel oil 5W30.
- hydraulic filters were changed at 50 hrs. with Bobcat OE filters but it still has the original fluid
- original fuel filter
- I purchase all my off-road fuel from the reliable local CO-OP, I use diesel fuel stabilizer since I don't use much fuel.
- the fuel in it is from last winter season but I've used it several times in the last 2 months with no issues.
- last used about 10 days ago to move yards of top soil around with the bucket
- today I used it to blow wet, heavy snow for the first time this season.
- Hi-Flow light is on with the SB200 attached.

- ambient temp 11F, Toolcat was in a barn that was 37F inside.
- engine starts fine and idles smoothly, I let the Toolcat warm up until the temp gauge is in the green and then I begin to snowblow.
- blowing heavy, compacted snow downhill at medium rpm presents no problems, but then.....

- at higher rpm, especially under load (driving back uphill) it starts to lose power rapidly and starts to blow clear BLUE smoke (not opaque heavy blue smoke) from the exhaust. Not much black smoke to speak of.
- With no snowblower rotation and just driving the Toolcat up a 150 foot, paved, 12% grade driveway it almost doesn't make it to the top. It is literally barely crawling when I get to the top flat area.
- when the engine's blowing blue smoke it's also running rough, and won't run above 2200 rpm in neutral, if I idle down, the smoke slows and stops but it idles down to 1200 rpm and is still running rough.
- if I bring the idle up to about 1600 for a few seconds, it will smooth out and I can then bring it down to a normal smooth idle with no smoke.
- when it's idling smoothly without load, I can run it up to 2900 rpm (normal top rpm), but after only a few seconds it will start running rough, start blowing clear blue smoke, and drop down to the 2200 rpm pretty quickly.
- I turned the engine off in case it was some sort of electronic control glitch but it did not solve the issue.
- I used the Toolcat for about an hour blowing snow on flat terrain and the problem seemed to get worse the longer I used it. Barely making it up the hill the last time.

-There are no warning lights.

- My first thought was it might be a plugged fuel filter but I'm stumped why it would be blowing blue smoke. I've got a Bobcat OE fuel filter sitting on the shelf.

I appreciate any help.

DEWFPO

 

[ruffdog]

Not a expert here either. High load/rpm needs 2 things, fuel and air. Being that it is easy, I would first check air inlet for blockage like a mouse nest and would blow out filter. Next, does your unit have a fuel filter water drain? I would do that while catching the fuel so you can identify any debris or water. After 12 years I would change the fuel filter in the near future. Then....

 

[DEWFPO]

Thanks Ruffdog, I'll check both of those things. I believe the fuel filter does have a water drain and that should be easy enough to do.

DEWFPO

 

[bnold]

Sounds very fuel filter to me...

Either water in bowl, or dirty filter, seems too warm to be gelled.

Easiest start is replace fuel filter.

 

[SSdoxie]

This machine has Hi-Flow so it has a turbo. What you describe is classic failure of the seals in turbo.

 

[DEWFPO]

This machine has Hi-Flow so it has a turbo. What you describe is classic failure of the seals in turbo.

That's what I'm afraid of. Are there any diagnostic procedures that I can use to verify? Is there a rebuild kit for the seals?

Thanks, DEWFPO

 

[dk8019]

That's what I'm afraid of. Are there any diagnostic procedures that I can use to verify? Is there a rebuild kit for the seals?

Thanks, DEWFPO

It sure sounds like the turbo. Good news is that a new turbo is around $200, or the core itself is around $120 and assuming everything comes loose on the exhaust manifold side, a relatively easy job to do.

49131-2 Turbo Cartridge Core For Kubota Earth Moving Excavator V23-T E3CD-D | eBay

For Kubota V23T V23-T Engine Turbocharger Turbo TD3 49131-9 1J43-1713 | eBay

 

[dk8019]

Well actually, if this is your engine bay, that turbo is going to be fun to get at from the intake side. Quick question on your oil type, I've never heard of running 5w-30 oil in a diesel, although it appears Kubota may have been pretty wide in their specifications for oil whether the oil is rated for diesel or not. Light oil can cause premature turbo seal failure from what I've read.

 

[groundcover]

I am in the fuel , fuel filter issue camp. Replace it and do an autopsy on the old one to check for slime / algae.

 

[laurencen]

not on my Toolcat but a couple years ago I had a similar issue on a Deere 644e, it ran great at times, others it was rough and blew lots of smoke and rough at any rpm, after playing with it turned out to be a large nest in the exhaust, it would be moving gradually restricting the exhaust, sort of like a check valve, pain to clear I took the exhause off and straight piped it with a mesh screen

 

[SSdoxie]

I mentioned turbo because of the blue smoke - indicates oil.

Diagnosis - Check oil level, see if it is using/blowing oil out exhaust. Visual inspection - remove intake or exhaust tube and feel for shaft end play. There will be some side to side/lateral play even in a good turbo, but no end play pulling in and out on the center shaft.

This is way out of the box but wishful thinking. Check the crankcase vent tube make sure it is open/venting. If plugged it can crankcase builds pressure, the lube oil in the turbo can not flow freely away from the bearing building pressure and forcing oil out the turbo.

 

[ruffdog]

I mentioned turbo because of the blue smoke - indicates oil.

Diagnosis - Check oil level, see if it is using/blowing oil out exhaust. Visual inspection - remove intake or exhaust tube and feel for shaft end play. There will be some side to side/lateral play even in a good turbo, but no end play pulling in and out on the center shaft.

This is way out of the box but wishful thinking. Check the crankcase vent tube make sure it is open/venting. If plugged it can crankcase builds pressure, the lube oil in the turbo can not flow freely away from the bearing building pressure and forcing oil out the turbo.

Could one of the mud wasps plug up the crankcase vents? Good catch, gas engines will do that too if the vent is plugged.

 

[iah]

I would expect a turbo failure or restricted air filter/plugged air intake (lack of sufficient air) to result in significant black smoke. I think fuel starvation is the more likely issue.
Starvation can result from a partial blockage in the system or from a cracked fuel line on the suction side of the fuel supply.

 

[DEWFPO]

Update,

I really appreciate all the expert advice.

Today I checked for blockages at both the air filter pre-filter and the cone filter in the air box and all was well. No nests or blockages.

The exhaust pipe was dry (no obvious wet oil) and no debris for a far as I could see into the pipe without pulling the exhaust off.

The engine oil level was right at the top of the range line and it was still clear. It only has about 25 hours on the oil. The 5W30 I use is a heavy duty synthetic diesel oil that I've been using for some time.

No water came out of the filter drain, and the fuel looked clear and good.

The filter had just a small amount of light brown biomaterial on the metal end cap of of the filter. Not bad. Looked inside using a very bright flash light and didn't see anything worrisome.

I thought this was interesting....opening the vent valve and pumping the heck out of the primer bulb resulted in plenty of "sounds" like air bubbles in the fuel line but absolutely no fuel coming out of the vent valve. The bulb would get hard after a while and then ease up with additional pumping, after more pumps it would eventually get hard again, then ease up again with further pumping. The reason I kept pumping is because nothing was coming out of the vent valve, neither air nor fuel. After about 50 pumps, I gave up, closed the vent valve and started the engine. The engine did however start right up without a single hickup and ran fine.

I ran it for ½ hour getting everything good and hot. Drove it up and down the steep driveway several times at full power, first with the blower off, then with the blower on to increase the load on the engine and I could not duplicate the power loss and blue smoke.

I ran the engine stationary at full power for a while and the rpm didn't drop off and the engine ran smooth at almost 3,000 rpm. I was outside the machine with the exhaust between me and the sun and there was no blue smoke at all. I tried everything I could think of to duplicate it and couldn't.

The only differences between today and a couple of days ago was 1.) a new fuel filter, and 2.) today was about 25-30 degrees warmer.

I use a fuel additive and don't believe that the fuel could have gelled.

I was originally wondering if I had 2 problems. A restricted fuel filter and a turbo oil seal going on me.

I am guardedly optimistic with todays results, but am also apprehensive about the turbo. I can't figure out why there was no blue smoke at all today when it was easily repeatable on Monday.

I've pulled the passenger's seat/engine cover to gain access to the turbo inlet and outlet pipes. I'll check for play on the turbo shaft both radially and axially. And I'll also check the manual tonight to figure out where the crankcase vent is so I can check that as well.

Thanks again for all the help, It's truly appreciated.

DEWFPO

 

[ruffdog]

Me thinks I would tear that fuel filter apart to see what's in it. Maybe even suck fuel out of the tank to get a look/see for fungus or ?? Sure glad it is running for ya! :thumbsup:

edit: I also have to wonder if you are running bio-diesel and at what percent?

 

[DEWFPO]

I cut open the fuel filter and found nothing unusual. Hmmm.

No biodiesel fuel here. I learned my lesson about 15 years ago.

I do add a maintenance dose of bio-kleen to my fuel along with Howe's and Sta-Bil.

DEWFPO

 

[DEWFPO]

Turned out to be the fuel filter.

DEWFPO

 

[ruffdog]

I had to change my filter too mid winter....