frugalangler
Gold Member
Wow, they just announced a 3.0L diesel in the 1/2 T
2019 Chevy Silverado
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BeeferMan
Gold Member
An obvious move once Ford announced the F150 would have a diesel option in 2018.
Wolfy
Veteran Member
Hope it is more reliable than the full size pickup diesel engines.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
With the complexity of modern emissions laden diesels, it would take a real serious situation for me to even consider one. I get enough grief from my heavy truck commercial diesels that I sure don't want one in my pickup if I can avoid it.
While I hope that this new 3L diesel is a great hit, if I was inclined to consider it I would wait it out for a couple of years while they get the bugs worked out of it. Problem is, even that diesel doesn't change the dynamics. It is still a 1/2 ton pickup. My 2500 6.0 gasser has significantly more capability than any 1/2 ton running around, and this diesel 1500 will be no different.
Some would argue fuel economy of the diesel, and that could be true. But right now, E85 is going for $1.70 in my area, and diesel is going for $3.15. I get about 11-12 mpg average on E85 in my 2500. For a diesel in my 2500 to break even, it would have to get 21-22 average. Possible, but not probable. Remember, that is average.... city, rural, highway, etc. The numbers work similar for a 1500, just a little better since it is 1000 lb lighter out of the gate. So while the new diesel 1500 might be able to pull off some nice fuel economy numbers, it probably will be in the range of the other brands.... about 5-6 mpg better across the board compared to the gas versions in the same pickup. That isn't good enough for me. I would much rather have a flex fuel gas engine. For a diesel to come close to matching my actual cost per mile on E85, it would have to get a minimum of 75% better fuel economy at today's prices. And even better than that for any hope of recovering the initial cost of purchase. Not going to happen.
Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500.
While I hope that this new 3L diesel is a great hit, if I was inclined to consider it I would wait it out for a couple of years while they get the bugs worked out of it. Problem is, even that diesel doesn't change the dynamics. It is still a 1/2 ton pickup. My 2500 6.0 gasser has significantly more capability than any 1/2 ton running around, and this diesel 1500 will be no different.
Some would argue fuel economy of the diesel, and that could be true. But right now, E85 is going for $1.70 in my area, and diesel is going for $3.15. I get about 11-12 mpg average on E85 in my 2500. For a diesel in my 2500 to break even, it would have to get 21-22 average. Possible, but not probable. Remember, that is average.... city, rural, highway, etc. The numbers work similar for a 1500, just a little better since it is 1000 lb lighter out of the gate. So while the new diesel 1500 might be able to pull off some nice fuel economy numbers, it probably will be in the range of the other brands.... about 5-6 mpg better across the board compared to the gas versions in the same pickup. That isn't good enough for me. I would much rather have a flex fuel gas engine. For a diesel to come close to matching my actual cost per mile on E85, it would have to get a minimum of 75% better fuel economy at today's prices. And even better than that for any hope of recovering the initial cost of purchase. Not going to happen.
Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500.
Peter 315
Super Member
Copperhead
(Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500). Right on the money, I think people just buy them to say I have a diesel . Fuel is around $2.84 here, plus the extra cost when buying. The small car lots are full of 4 to 5 year old diesel trucks
(Seems like more of a status symbol / social statement to me than any appreciable benefit of getting the diesel in the 1500). Right on the money, I think people just buy them to say I have a diesel . Fuel is around $2.84 here, plus the extra cost when buying. The small car lots are full of 4 to 5 year old diesel trucks
buickanddeere
Super Member
So why is the diesel option of any importance ? This is 2018 , not 1990.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
It sure is 2018! Selective Catalytic Reduction units that require DEF. Diesel engines being made to eat their own feces via EGR, which of course requires a elaborate EGR cooler unit that, if it fails, can grenade an engine by dumping coolant into the cylinders. And since that creates a lot more soot, Diesel Particulate Filters to capture that and burn off periodically. All of that adds a pile of complexity to these diesels and alone adds about $5000 to the production cost of the vehicle. Try pricing these things separately and be sitting down when you do. And we haven't even talked about turbos. Water cooled VGT turbos that are common now. Lucky to buy a replacement off Ebay for less than $2K. Whereas a good ol traditional Borg Warner 171702 assymetric turbo for my 2000 Detroit 12.7L Series 60, I can buy any day of the week from between $600 and $700 with free shipping to my front door.
Of course, some might be able to delete all that emissions stuff, but at a pretty significant cost and they just threw their engine warranty in the garbage. A pretty high price to pay just for the bragging right of saying they have a diesel.
Just really hard for me to get excited about modern emission laden diesels. Not until I have a real, true need for one. And that time is not here nor is likely to be in the foreseeable future. My good ol 2015 2500 6.0L gasser will continue to reside with me. It is reliable, parts are easy to come by and it is easy to fix, etc. And it has no problem pulling and hauling some pretty significant loads. Considerably more than that diesel 1500. And significantly cheaper to buy than that diesel 1500 also. And the diesels I do own, they are pre-emission and I will just get a factory reman crate engine and drop it in when the current one is ready to die. Will just keep the heavy trucks going and avoid all this emissions nonsense.
Of course, some might be able to delete all that emissions stuff, but at a pretty significant cost and they just threw their engine warranty in the garbage. A pretty high price to pay just for the bragging right of saying they have a diesel.
Just really hard for me to get excited about modern emission laden diesels. Not until I have a real, true need for one. And that time is not here nor is likely to be in the foreseeable future. My good ol 2015 2500 6.0L gasser will continue to reside with me. It is reliable, parts are easy to come by and it is easy to fix, etc. And it has no problem pulling and hauling some pretty significant loads. Considerably more than that diesel 1500. And significantly cheaper to buy than that diesel 1500 also. And the diesels I do own, they are pre-emission and I will just get a factory reman crate engine and drop it in when the current one is ready to die. Will just keep the heavy trucks going and avoid all this emissions nonsense.
OP
frugalangler
Gold Member
I hear all the rants about the new diesels, and for many they are relevant, the new ones aren't for everyone. But, there are some of us that appreciate the difference that a diesel delivers, and are willing to pay up a little up front for those. Some of the things are:
Drivability - My Jeep w/ it's 3.0L EcoDiesel will pull my bass boat at 75MPH and very rarely downshift out of 8th gear, but most all of my buddies w/ either 1/2T PU's or SUV's are constantly hunting in search of torque to pull hills because their torque is at a much higher RPM, typically above 3K RPM where it's in the torque curve (yes, the newer turbo Fords are better, but still search for gearing). To me, that means a lot.
Economy - Yes, I pay a premium for fuel, but I've run spreadsheets since I started towing w/ a diesel to ensure it's the correct decision for me - and what I found is that my ROI for the up-charge on the diesel turns in about 75K miles, last diesel I used for 126K so I was ROI positive there, and maintenance cost was not out of line to what a gas engine was, biggest was I used 2X the amount of oil, but I do all my own maintenance so it's only the cost of the oil, not the increased oil change cost in total. On the Jeep, I'm seeing even better improvement on mileage over a gas tow vehicle, most all my buddies struggle to pull their boats at above 10MPG and it drops like a brick as speed goes up, they are constantly asking me to run slower because their mileage drops BIG above 65MPH, I run better at about 72-75MPH because of where that puts me in the engines torque curve. I yearly make a trip from NE MO to East TX and round trip running the posted speed or just slightly above (turnpike posted 75, I'll run about 77) and for the total trip including to/from motel/launch for a week I pulled 19.5MPG vs. the 10MPG buddies got. So, in my case a fuel cost premium of about 15% (last trip was 87Octane @ $1.90/gal and #2 at $2.20/gal) I definitely got more MP$ (miles per $$) than my buddies! The other advantage is my non-towing MPG is about 33MPG running interstates, again 70-75MPH, where similar powered gas Jeeps (5.7L, not the lame 3.6L) are getting low 20's MPG, so again I'm MPG positive vs. the cost of fuel.
My Jeep spends almost 80% of it's time either towing or on the highway, hardly ever sees many miles in town slow&go traffic since I work from a home office, so it sits in the drive often 10 days in a row.
I look back to 1986 when I bought my first VW Jetta w/ a diesel - I was commuting 55 miles each way to my office, averaged about 52MPG where most similar gas Jettas would average about 25MPG, but because it was a NA I didn't see the drivability of the current turbo-diesels. I simply chose for economy, and at that era diesel was virtually the same $$/gal as gas, usually never varied +/- more than a couple cents per gal. That car definitely was ROI positive as the up charge was negligible back then.
Come forward to today, you can't pry the latest VW Passat TDI out of my wife's hands, we actually owned one of the Jetta TDI's (2012) that was included in the scandal - it got bought back and we replaced with the 2015 Passat for a mere $1,000 difference 5 years later. Why do we like that car? Drivability, it just goes when you want it to, knocks down 52MPG on the highway and we average a combined 42-45 city/hwy, and did I mention it goes when you ask it to? It's quiet so much so that many never realize it's a diesel unless we tell them or they remind us as we refuel - YOU KNOW THAT'S A DIESEL PUMP, DON'T YA?
So, I applaud the manufactures for giving us choices, and to finally see GM bring a diesel choice to market is great.
Are diesels a good choice for everyone? NO, but they are a great choice for some, I've got evidence that assures me that it's the right choice for me. And to those that scoff at the DEF, I've not found it to be a nuisance, yes it adds some cost / mile, but no where near enough to be concerned about - I'm averaging about 2.5G per 5K miles - paying about $8 / 2.5G, so about .0016 cents per mile or 80 cents per tank, I can live with that.
And, on another note, I've only had a diesel fuel issue one time since 1986, I never run additives (the old Jetta would get a gal of gas each fill in winter, and it's the one that gelled on me, but ULSD is much better I believe) and run a lot longer on fuel filter changes than most, my Duramax I ran 40K on fuel filter, never did change the filter on the 2012 Jetta, and run about 25K on the Jeep.
Feel free to disagree with my logic, but again I've tracked my decision and am comfortable it's right for me. Is it a status or ego thing, well I've always marched to a different drummer, so maybe, but that's not the driver - I don't go around rolling coal (smoke cloud to show off), etc. It's just a way of life for me.
Drivability - My Jeep w/ it's 3.0L EcoDiesel will pull my bass boat at 75MPH and very rarely downshift out of 8th gear, but most all of my buddies w/ either 1/2T PU's or SUV's are constantly hunting in search of torque to pull hills because their torque is at a much higher RPM, typically above 3K RPM where it's in the torque curve (yes, the newer turbo Fords are better, but still search for gearing). To me, that means a lot.
Economy - Yes, I pay a premium for fuel, but I've run spreadsheets since I started towing w/ a diesel to ensure it's the correct decision for me - and what I found is that my ROI for the up-charge on the diesel turns in about 75K miles, last diesel I used for 126K so I was ROI positive there, and maintenance cost was not out of line to what a gas engine was, biggest was I used 2X the amount of oil, but I do all my own maintenance so it's only the cost of the oil, not the increased oil change cost in total. On the Jeep, I'm seeing even better improvement on mileage over a gas tow vehicle, most all my buddies struggle to pull their boats at above 10MPG and it drops like a brick as speed goes up, they are constantly asking me to run slower because their mileage drops BIG above 65MPH, I run better at about 72-75MPH because of where that puts me in the engines torque curve. I yearly make a trip from NE MO to East TX and round trip running the posted speed or just slightly above (turnpike posted 75, I'll run about 77) and for the total trip including to/from motel/launch for a week I pulled 19.5MPG vs. the 10MPG buddies got. So, in my case a fuel cost premium of about 15% (last trip was 87Octane @ $1.90/gal and #2 at $2.20/gal) I definitely got more MP$ (miles per $$) than my buddies! The other advantage is my non-towing MPG is about 33MPG running interstates, again 70-75MPH, where similar powered gas Jeeps (5.7L, not the lame 3.6L) are getting low 20's MPG, so again I'm MPG positive vs. the cost of fuel.
My Jeep spends almost 80% of it's time either towing or on the highway, hardly ever sees many miles in town slow&go traffic since I work from a home office, so it sits in the drive often 10 days in a row.
I look back to 1986 when I bought my first VW Jetta w/ a diesel - I was commuting 55 miles each way to my office, averaged about 52MPG where most similar gas Jettas would average about 25MPG, but because it was a NA I didn't see the drivability of the current turbo-diesels. I simply chose for economy, and at that era diesel was virtually the same $$/gal as gas, usually never varied +/- more than a couple cents per gal. That car definitely was ROI positive as the up charge was negligible back then.
Come forward to today, you can't pry the latest VW Passat TDI out of my wife's hands, we actually owned one of the Jetta TDI's (2012) that was included in the scandal - it got bought back and we replaced with the 2015 Passat for a mere $1,000 difference 5 years later. Why do we like that car? Drivability, it just goes when you want it to, knocks down 52MPG on the highway and we average a combined 42-45 city/hwy, and did I mention it goes when you ask it to? It's quiet so much so that many never realize it's a diesel unless we tell them or they remind us as we refuel - YOU KNOW THAT'S A DIESEL PUMP, DON'T YA?
So, I applaud the manufactures for giving us choices, and to finally see GM bring a diesel choice to market is great.
Are diesels a good choice for everyone? NO, but they are a great choice for some, I've got evidence that assures me that it's the right choice for me. And to those that scoff at the DEF, I've not found it to be a nuisance, yes it adds some cost / mile, but no where near enough to be concerned about - I'm averaging about 2.5G per 5K miles - paying about $8 / 2.5G, so about .0016 cents per mile or 80 cents per tank, I can live with that.
And, on another note, I've only had a diesel fuel issue one time since 1986, I never run additives (the old Jetta would get a gal of gas each fill in winter, and it's the one that gelled on me, but ULSD is much better I believe) and run a lot longer on fuel filter changes than most, my Duramax I ran 40K on fuel filter, never did change the filter on the 2012 Jetta, and run about 25K on the Jeep.
Feel free to disagree with my logic, but again I've tracked my decision and am comfortable it's right for me. Is it a status or ego thing, well I've always marched to a different drummer, so maybe, but that's not the driver - I don't go around rolling coal (smoke cloud to show off), etc. It's just a way of life for me.
buickanddeere
Super Member
Could be why I said the diesel option is of no importance . Who would want one of the headaches ?
bkrgi
Bronze Member
EPA killed the diesel option in my book.
Sure if you got a desire to toss money away by buying new and never get out of warranty then enjoy.
But long term when things will go south the dollars just add up way to quick way to fast...is insane some of the costs involved with repairs.
For the depreciation cost of driving a new truck off the lot I would rather buy a older one for the same dollars and at least be able to fix it without all the BS that is involved with modern diesels.
I'll stick with my '94 12v and just scored a cheap pure basic '02 2500 Ram 4x gasser that body wise is absolutely rust free, low mileage, clean clean interior. Disable the ABS crap and we are good...
KISS seems to have gone the way of the dodo with all the EPA and brain box junk
Second what the heck is up with diesel priced so so much higher than E85....oh wait yah Government screwing with the market...again.
Sure if you got a desire to toss money away by buying new and never get out of warranty then enjoy.
But long term when things will go south the dollars just add up way to quick way to fast...is insane some of the costs involved with repairs.
For the depreciation cost of driving a new truck off the lot I would rather buy a older one for the same dollars and at least be able to fix it without all the BS that is involved with modern diesels.
I'll stick with my '94 12v and just scored a cheap pure basic '02 2500 Ram 4x gasser that body wise is absolutely rust free, low mileage, clean clean interior. Disable the ABS crap and we are good...
KISS seems to have gone the way of the dodo with all the EPA and brain box junk
Second what the heck is up with diesel priced so so much higher than E85....oh wait yah Government screwing with the market...again.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
If one has a real need for diesel, then it becomes a realistic option. But for what we are talking about here.... a 1/2 ton with a diesel.... there is nothing about it that makes it special or that it is going to fill a need that the gassers in the same 1/2 ton can't provide. The pickup is still a class 1 and isn't going to have any more significant payload than the gasser versions. It would pull better at higher elevations (above 5000 ft), but most folks are not in that category. Most times, before anyone reaches full towing capacity of a 1/2 ton, they have already maxed out of payload.
This diesel option in the 1500 is just a way to get CAFE numbers up a little overall and appease government. And it allows the OEM to play "keep up with the Jones'" and not be left out of the diesel half ton race. And it will make a few people feel special about having a diesel. If we ever hit the $5 a gallon diesel price we hit a few years back, they might not feel so special about having a diesel. Especially when I will be able to fill my gasser 2500 with E85 for about $2 less per gallon like I did back then and still have more power/capability than they do. So even with their higher mpg numbers, I will still be at a lower cost per mile.
And we are there right now, at least comparing a 2500 gasser to a 2500 diesel. It is actually cheaper per mile for me now to run E85 at the lower mpg than it is to run diesel. The price spread between those two fuels is about $1.40 now in my area. It is likely that the same can be said regarding the 5.3L gasser and this 3.0L diesel. The 5.3L running on E85 would deliver enough performance and a far lower cost per mile. I know a 5.3L 1500 that I had, when on E85, would get about 13-14 mpg average for all miles. The new ones might be a little better. For this 3.0L diesel in the 1500 just to break even on fuel cost per mile (based on fuel prices in my area), it would have to average 27 mpg for ALL miles..... city, rural, highway, etc. That is a bit of a stretch, but possible in the right hands. But that is just a break even. No appreciable fuel economy savings by using diesel.
And the GM 5.3L has a documented gain of 15 hp and 10 lb torque when using E85 as opposed to gas. Not a lot, but a gain nonetheless.
It would take a real need for diesel to convince me to spend more in both the initial acquisition and also the higher operating cost.
This diesel option in the 1500 is just a way to get CAFE numbers up a little overall and appease government. And it allows the OEM to play "keep up with the Jones'" and not be left out of the diesel half ton race. And it will make a few people feel special about having a diesel. If we ever hit the $5 a gallon diesel price we hit a few years back, they might not feel so special about having a diesel. Especially when I will be able to fill my gasser 2500 with E85 for about $2 less per gallon like I did back then and still have more power/capability than they do. So even with their higher mpg numbers, I will still be at a lower cost per mile.
And we are there right now, at least comparing a 2500 gasser to a 2500 diesel. It is actually cheaper per mile for me now to run E85 at the lower mpg than it is to run diesel. The price spread between those two fuels is about $1.40 now in my area. It is likely that the same can be said regarding the 5.3L gasser and this 3.0L diesel. The 5.3L running on E85 would deliver enough performance and a far lower cost per mile. I know a 5.3L 1500 that I had, when on E85, would get about 13-14 mpg average for all miles. The new ones might be a little better. For this 3.0L diesel in the 1500 just to break even on fuel cost per mile (based on fuel prices in my area), it would have to average 27 mpg for ALL miles..... city, rural, highway, etc. That is a bit of a stretch, but possible in the right hands. But that is just a break even. No appreciable fuel economy savings by using diesel.
And the GM 5.3L has a documented gain of 15 hp and 10 lb torque when using E85 as opposed to gas. Not a lot, but a gain nonetheless.
It would take a real need for diesel to convince me to spend more in both the initial acquisition and also the higher operating cost.
BeeferMan
Gold Member
For a farm truck I currently run a 1 ton gasser, I don't tow far or often enough to justify a diesel. But I'm also in the market for a crew cab 1/2 ton (part work/part play), there a diesel might make sense.
Ultimately it will be about price/performance. Diesel MPG will be higher (diesel is currently about .40 more per gallon here), and the towing characteristics will better, especially when tuned. It is still half ton, but that's not a unpopular towing platform by any means; the 1/2 ton folks who tow a lot will probably like these, just like the 3/4 ton+ folks go for the diesels. If a diesel in the 1/2 tons is as significant an advantage as it is in the 3/4+ ton range, they will probably sell a bunch of 'em. Enough to keep the manufacturers building them? We'll see.
Ultimately it will be about price/performance. Diesel MPG will be higher (diesel is currently about .40 more per gallon here), and the towing characteristics will better, especially when tuned. It is still half ton, but that's not a unpopular towing platform by any means; the 1/2 ton folks who tow a lot will probably like these, just like the 3/4 ton+ folks go for the diesels. If a diesel in the 1/2 tons is as significant an advantage as it is in the 3/4+ ton range, they will probably sell a bunch of 'em. Enough to keep the manufacturers building them? We'll see.
LouNY
Super Star Member
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- Branson 8050, IH 574, Oliver 1550 Diesel Utility (traded in on Branson) NH 8160. Kioti CK2620SECH
I will agree with the above, I have a 2015 RAM with the little V6 diesel, I have always been impressed with this engine, the low end torque of 420 ft lbs at 1800 rpm which is close to where it runs a lot of the time this compares favorably to the feel of the old big block motors. I am disappointed that the *****d EPA has screwed all the diesel the way they have. To me the drivability combined with the mileage makes it a winner. I do not like having an engine that has to scream with rpm to make its power, when a pickup engine has to turn over 3500 rpm to make power to me that is garbage, some people may like them I don't. I am looking forward to hearing more about Chevys inline 6 diesel.
buickanddeere
Super Member
What possible harm is there for a gasser to kick down a couple of gears and rev up when towing a trailer up a hill ? It is not going to blowup.
The diesel can not rev up because the cam timing duration is so short the engine can’t breath at high told.
The diesel can not rev up because the cam timing duration is so short the engine can’t breath at high told.
Haneyrm
Silver Member
Glad to see that they rounded off the wheel wells. Never liked the square wells.
LouNY
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,427
- Location
- Greenwich, NY
- Tractor
- Branson 8050, IH 574, Oliver 1550 Diesel Utility (traded in on Branson) NH 8160. Kioti CK2620SECH
Some people like an engine that screams, I like one that runs smoothly at lower rpm and delivers.
As a Deere fan I would of thought you liked low rpm engines. I have had several high revving engines, bikes, stock cars, and newer pickups I'm just not a fan of an engine that makes it max torque at 4500-5500 rpm for a working truck may be allright for a play thing. My previous pu a Dodge Dakota with the 4.7 and 5 speed drove like a 2 stroke, gutless under 3500 rpm and like turning a switch on above, would run like a bandit at high rpm and did at times, I was uncomfortable keeping it twisted up high for several hours even though it did it a few times with no problems. Heck it did 4 hours in 3rd gear and 3500-4000 rpm pulling an overloaded trailer a few hundred miles one time. That truck turned 213,000 with minimal required repairs.
There are choices for gas engines that produce low end torque now, without the added expense of a diesel. Plus the gas engines match or beat the diesels for payload and towing capacities. I can see the new diesel engines in 1/2 tons for someone putting a LOT of highway miles per year on a truck. Otherwise, meh, there are much better gas choices for the vast majority of buyers. I buy a truck for 1) Payload, 2) Comfort, 3) Towing, 4) MPGs. We all have those 4 things in our own preferred order so it's nice to have choices when we buy.
