250' water line: got some questions

[RNeumann]

Did you see my post? "300' rolls of 1" PEX for $332.55" They also sell SharkBite 1-Inch PEX Tubing, 500 Feet, BLUE, for Residential and Commercial Potable Water Applications.

The last page of this thread explains some problems with black poly in Texas, but that may be due to insufficient wall thickness.

And what is a "standard PEX fitting"? I've seen at least 11 types of PEX fittings

Yes I saw your post 300' for $332. Did you see mine? 500' for $232. What's the point. 90% of an underground job is time and labor. I wouldn't put in the cheapest- I'd put in the best. I'd also recommend the best to the OP and anyone else who is reading this and wants to use the best supplies.

With regards to fittings you (previous poster) are correct- lots of standards but none of them were designed (not just approved but designed) with underground as the primary use. I was asking if anyone had seen a fitting designed for underground- my bad on the wording.

So I posed a series of questions about the fascination with PEX for underground. Data, specs, anything that shows it's a superior product for underground. What I got back was a series of opinions- that can't be backed up with fact- with the exception of one post from someone who states the fittings are cheaper for PEX. That's unfortunate since most issues are at the fittings/joints.

So we can all (mostly) agree that PVC isn't the best choice. We can also eliminate the "poly" pipe that was either the class action lawsuit stuff from the early 1990s or the thin walled 80-100psi stuff that is about like drip tubing and held together with barbed fittings and hose clamps.

That leaves us with HDPE and PEX. One (PEX) was designed for inside the building, can't be exposed to UV light for more than 30 days and doesn't has specific fittings designed for underground. The other (HDPE) started life as a solution for underground. Is the standard for utilities and municipalities for gas lines, water lines, fiber optic conduit etc. The fittings (either fuse or mechanical) were designed for underground as well.

It's your choice- As I said in my first post here- I understand PEX is approved for underground in some areas.

To conclude- I asked what the fascination with PEX is, thinking I'd get at least one response with a link to an article or manufacture data or maybe a municipality or utility that was using it for underground. Unfortunately, now I understand it is born from saving money on fittings and or misinformation.

 

[PILOON]

One caution about hose clamps. While they claim them to be stainless, often only the clamp band is but the screw that closes the clamp is plain carbon steel.
On more than a few occasions I have had water line failures and the majority were due to clamps.
Each time the screw was no longer existent. Might be that the water or soil was acidic.
For that reason I always use 2 clamps with screws 180 deg apart and like to mildly heat the interior of my lines so that the splice teeth really grip poly inner surface.

 

[jenkinsph]

Yes I saw your post 300' for $332. Did you see mine? 500' for $232. What's the point. 90% of an underground job is time and labor. I wouldn't put in the cheapest- I'd put in the best. I'd also recommend the best to the OP and anyone else who is reading this and wants to use the best supplies.

With regards to fittings you (previous poster) are correct- lots of standards but none of them were designed (not just approved but designed) with underground as the primary use. I was asking if anyone had seen a fitting designed for underground- my bad on the wording.

So I posed a series of questions about the fascination with PEX for underground. Data, specs, anything that shows it's a superior product for underground. What I got back was a series of opinions- that can't be backed up with fact- with the exception of one post from someone who states the fittings are cheaper for PEX. That's unfortunate since most issues are at the fittings/joints.

So we can all (mostly) agree that PVC isn't the best choice. We can also eliminate the "poly" pipe that was either the class action lawsuit stuff from the early 1990s or the thin walled 80-100psi stuff that is about like drip tubing and held together with barbed fittings and hose clamps.

That leaves us with HDPE and PEX. One (PEX) was designed for inside the building, can't be exposed to UV light for more than 30 days and doesn't has specific fittings designed for underground. The other (HDPE) started life as a solution for underground. Is the standard for utilities and municipalities for gas lines, water lines, fiber optic conduit etc. The fittings (either fuse or mechanical) were designed for underground as well.

It's your choice- As I said in my first post here- I understand PEX is approved for underground in some areas.

To conclude- I asked what the fascination with PEX is, thinking I'd get at least one response with a link to an article or manufacture data or maybe a municipality or utility that was using it for underground. Unfortunately, now I understand it is born from saving money on fittings and or misinformation.

You are the one who seems to be fascinated with a specific product. If you can afford the high priced underground connectors then go for it. I have had lots of elderly customers on a fixed income that can't afford the very best. Consider your own good fortune.

 

[RNeumann]

So based on the numbers posted here-

PEX- 300' $332
PEX fittings- let's say free- although one post suggested sharkbite for $25 each. But I'll say you invested the money to crimp of swage PEX we will still say free.
Total materials- $332

HDPE - 500' of pipe $232
Fittings- mechanical fittings $20 each (4 total- 2 90° and 2 transitions from HDPE to pipe $80)
Total cost- $312

Oh and with the other 250' of pipe you ran conduit to the barn for the network and coax cable.

The "hole" is getting deeper and now the elderly on a fixed income are in it........

If you want to help the elderly spend $400 on an iron and the ends needed to socket fuse. Then the fitting costs go to about $6 each.

Next? Maybe data driven?

 

[jenkinsph]

So based on the numbers posted here-

PEX- 300' $332
PEX fittings- let's say free- although one post suggested sharkbite for $25 each. But I'll say you invested the money to crimp of swage PEX we will still say free.
Total materials- $332

HDPE - 500' of pipe $232
Fittings- mechanical fittings $20 each (4 total- 2 90° and 2 transitions from HDPE to pipe $80)
Total cost- $312

Oh and with the other 250' of pipe you ran conduit to the barn for the network and coax cable.

The "hole" is getting deeper and now the elderly on a fixed income are in it........

If you want to help the elderly spend $400 on an iron and the ends needed to socket fuse. Then the fitting costs go to about $6 each.

Next? Maybe data driven?

I often donate the materials and labor to help these elderly people and am glad I can do something for them. More often than not their properties are not big enough to need a long water line. Buy what you want and knock yourself out.

 

[newbury]

So based on the numbers posted here-
<snip>

HDPE - 500' of pipe $232
Fittings- mechanical fittings $20 each (4 total- 2 90° and 2 transitions from HDPE to pipe $80)
Total cost- $312
<snip>

You conveniently eliminated shipping. They listed $150 for shipping the pipe to me.

A better comparison would be 500' of 200PSI poly from HD for $274.

 

[RNeumann]

Ouch! That's steep for shipping. Hopefully one could source it locally. If the wholesaler won't sell direct to you maybe the plumber who only charged $20 to come out could help you out. He may also be able to make up the ends if you went with a fitting that required a special tool.

Do the lines come up inside the building? What are you tying into on the supply side? If you end up with the PEX from the Depot maybe you can sweep the two ends up inside the building without any fittings underground.

 

[EddieWalker]

To conclude- I asked what the fascination with PEX is, thinking I'd get at least one response with a link to an article or manufacture data or maybe a municipality or utility that was using it for underground. Unfortunately, now I understand it is born from saving money on fittings and or misinformation.

PEX is the improved, better, stronger version of HDPE black poly pipe

Cross-linked polyethylene - Wikipedia

 

[ultrarunner]

My only comment is a water line is something I only want to do once... if the best costs a little more that cost is one time up front and is nothing compared to having to go back and make repairs.

 

[RNeumann]

PEX is the improved, better, stronger version of HDPE black poly pipe

Cross-linked polyethylene - Wikipedia

Exactly what wiki doesn't say. Under the "Plumbing" section it does mention this though-

Gradually, PEX became more accepted for more indoor plumbing uses, such as carrying pressurized water to fixtures throughout the house. Increasingly, in the 2000s, copper pipes as well as plastic PVC pipes are being replaced with PEX.[3] PEX can be used for underground purposes, although one report suggested that appropriate "sleeves" be used for such applications.[5]

So good underground wiki recommends putting it in a sleeve.

1 point for Eddie for producing a link to some data. Unfortunately-2 points for reenforcing why PEX isn't the #1 choice for underground.

It's unfortunate that in the plumbing world the types of pipe are so vast yet look similar. If this were a discussion about electrical lines in a trench it would be easy- one person would produce the code section chart for proper wire gauge and a few would mention conduit vs direct bury and then a bit about copper vs aluminum. All easy to visualize and understand. But for the plumbing, as the wiki article mentions, their are several chemical make-ups within one class of pipe. Then throw in that the pipe is used for everything from sprinkler lines to high pressure gas mains. On top of that the plumbing industry has seen many failed products- from water lines to sewer lines- the class action suits have piled up. People see the failure themselves or have a friend who had a failure of a "black water line" and assume it's this product or that that is an issue- not knowing what they saw was actually a product that is no longer on the market.

I have been in this industry a long time and am happy to share and help any way I can. Someone taught me and I am happy to teach others. What's difficult is seeing an OP or someone else who genuinely wants to learn get responses like "my vote is for PEX" or "PEX is the new improved HDPE". We are a forum for ideas but also a vital knowledge base for the vast number of folks who will stumble upon this site for information.

If someone posted they were running a galvanized pipe water line cuz that's what they had and could afford I'd be happy to help- explain the limitations and strengths of the pipe and offer any tips for a successful install. Note I did this in my previous post to the person getting ready to do the job- including if they were going to use PEX.