3 board fence help - post setting, preserving, and finish (stain etc)

[hazmat]

Our fence is litterally falling apart. previous owner used rough sawn untreated pine. It didn't last long Wife insists on painting or staining the new fence white. I tried to convince her that we should go with cedar and let it age - no dice. I figure I'll paint it when installed, in 5 years, and in 10 years my daughter will be 12 and maybe I can bribe her to do it?

Its amazing what you will sign up to do when you are in the process of shopping for a new tractor. I'm sure the rest of y'all would paint 360 feet of fence for a backhoe

Attached is an old picture of the fence - looks good from a distance.

We'll Probably go with 3 boards this time around. 360 feet of fence with (3) 8' double gates (4' each side). We will also wrap it with wire to keep the kids and dogs in (we live on state highway).

Costs for pressure treated - 4x4 post, 2x6 board - $1,200. For Cedar - 5x5 post, 2x6 rail $3,700. Fence company quoted $650 to remove old fence, and $3,100 labor to install new one plus material. Wire mesh extra.

Now for the questions:

1 - What is the best way to set the posts? - I've heard that using concrete accelerates the rotting process as water gets in between the concrete and wood & has nowhere to drain. Yet I've seen lots of people recommending concrete??? The engineer geek in me would love it if someone could reference a university extension study that looked into the best method. How about using sand / gravel / stonedust???

2- What to treat the post with to slow down the rotting? The back of the fence is near a stream - very wet.

3- Favorite finishing method? Wifey wants white - solid stain? paint? I think I prefer stain as it is easier to restain than repaint (scraping etc), but am open to suggestions. Favorite brands of stain/paint?

Thanks!

The fence

 

[scott_vt]

Mornin Haz,
Absolutely solid color white stain ! If your wife has her mind made up on white.

Also you might check out one of Eddie Walkers posted photos on his homefront entrance, white vinyl fencing, very nice but will be more $$$ than what your planning. My neighbor also used the same stuff and virtually maintenance free !

 

[mikim]

If you plan on being there 10 years and more ... maybe the extra $$ for vinyl would be well worth it. And vinyl coated wire as well....if you can afford it .... "do it right the first time"

 

[mjarrels]

I have 3 board pressure treated fence around my house. Fence is probably 20 years old... post just set in the ground with dirt. Had a couple kids speeding and lose control and take out three sections. Bottom part of the post in ground is in better condition than the above ground section.

mark

 

[hazmat]

We looked at the vinyl - it was too well, "plastic" for her tastes. The other issue would be adding the wire mesh to it - not sure if it would "take" staples as well as wood...

I've been googling fencing and came across concrete rail fence probably even more money than vinyl.

 

[drssg]

Costs for pressure treated - 4x4 post, 2x6 board - $1,200.

I'm guessing you mean 1x6 boards? I've never heard of anyone using 2x6s to build a board fence.

What is the best way to set the posts?

I think the most important thing is to make sure they go down below the frost line. I've seen a lot of "professionally" installed fences where the posts are coming out of the ground because they weren't installed deep enough. I would want them at least 2.5', preferably 3'.

I don't have info on the best fill to use. I've used concrete when I needed it, such as when hanging a gate. I've just packed in the dirt, and that's OK, but the post can be a little looser. I've actually pounded in most of my posts. That makes them quite solid, but the fence line isn't as straight.

 

[EddieWalker]

Scotty,

Thanks.

Hazmat,

I read that vinyl is out, but you might want to give it a little time. I was originally against vinyl too. I thought it was too shiny and flimsy looking. But over time, it really grew on me. The more I saw it, the more I liked it. Especially when comparing it to wood fences of the same style. I'm only talking about 3 rail fences, as I think the vinyl privacy fences look aweful.

I've attached a picture of my driveway that shows what my fence looks like.

As to putting on the wire mesh, I've thought about doing that myself. I'm enclosing an area of about 4 acres with my small pond in it and I'm thinking I need something to keep coyotes out. We have three ducks in there and they are so dumb that they go for walks away from the pond. They cannot fly, so they are easy pickings for coyotes. I used to have four ducks, so it's just a matter of time until I'm down to two, then none.

My thought on the wire mesh was to screw it into the rails in lengths cut to fit between the posts. The rails are 1 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inche with two ribs down teh middle for stiffness. A few self tapping, or exterior deck screws would hold the wire tite and shouldn't damage the fence any.

Price on vinyl fence is all over the place. I bought mine through Gardner Fence. Gardner Fence Systems - Horse Fencing and PVC Fencing They have distributors all over the place, but the closest to me was two hours away. Picked up at the feed store where it's sold, I paid $3.25 a foot for 1,000 feet three years ago. I need another 960 feet and will probably buy it later this year or early next year. I don't know the current price, but they were almost the cheapest. There were some cheaper, but not of the same quality. The price just goes up from there. Lowes and Home Depot were allot more with a lesser quality fence. The top of the line stuff was over $8 a foot, but from what I learned, it wasn't any better then what Gardner is selling. It's all in the bonding of the PVC to the grey material. Sorry, I forget all the technical details.

If your set on wood, I have some experience with it. I've read and been told by allot of people to put a rock, or gravel at the bottom of a post. I've never seen a post rot out at the bottom when set on the dirt, so I think this is a great idea that has no actual benifit. It just sounds good. The ony time I do this is when I've dug too deep and need to bring a post up.

Posts rot out at one place, and the picture shows it pretty clearly. They all seem to rot where the post comes out of the ground. It doesn't matter if they are set in dirt or concrete, it's alays at this same place. I've looked all over the rest of the post for degree of rot, and there will sometimes be a very small amount at the bottom, or along the sides, but 90% or more of it is always at the point the surface of the soil. In really bad cases, it works it's way down, but again, it started at the same place.

When I put in a wood post, I use concrete and build it up to creat a crown. I've never seen a post rot with this done. I've read that you can add silicone or caulking at the top of the crown and the post to make it even better, but I've never done this.

Eddie

 

[forgeblast]

I reciently finished putting in a three rail fence to keep my dogs in line. Its backed with livestock fencing.
I used 4x4 posts except for where the hinges to the gates would be attached. there i used a 6x4. The posts were all backfilled with modified (crusher run) stone. (very easy to replace when filled with stone).
The rails are pressure treated decking.
Staining was so easy i have a Wagner Paint Crew that i got for 99 bucks at hearland america.com.
Since our house is a dark brown a-frame, and our barn is a dark brown i used dark brown for the fence and it ties the whole area together.
The worse thing about putting in the fence was digging the holes. I had a portable phd, and the rock here was still horrible. I used some old jackhammer bits i have to smash through some of the rock we have just to get the post deep enough.
Hard work but worth every dollar.
Forgeblast

 

[hazmat]

Eddie - the fence certainly looks great in your picture. I think the problem my wife has is looking at it close up. I really don't desire to have to paint the darn thing...

A call to gardner fence indicated $4.35 a foot for 3 rail picked up at their yard (100 miles away)+ $425 per each of (3) double 4' gates = ~$2,900. The instant quote online was $4,500 delivered to my door. Worst case it is on par with the cedar, probably a bit cheaper... A single 8' gate would be $225 each. Gates swing both ways & the single ones have latch access from both sides.

Nice lady on the phone indicated that I could attach wire fencing using fender washers & screws on the posts & not cut it between each post...

 

[Soundguy]

360'? That's nothing.

I'd rip it up myself to save that money. Whether you pay to get it installed or not is up to you. ( you, your wallet, your time.. and your wife... I have no opinion on that one... I've put up fence, and also paid to have fence put up.. just depended on how much time and money i had at the time. )

Coloring? I like cresote myself.. seems to last longer than PT.. even painted PT. My next choice is black asphalt paint over PT.. lasts ALMOST as long as cresote. Next choice is that new-ish laytex fence paint.. i know you can get red, brown, and black.. not sure about white.. but maybee?? Next choice.. if needing white would be whitewash.. and last.. any exterior flat white.. If you are really worried about rot.. you can get a tub of copepr napthenate post dip.. farm stores and HD sell it in 5g pails. You dip the post in it and then set it.. watch out.. it's green.. and removes hair.. leaves a semi-permanent stain on MOST things... kills everything else ( bugs and fungus.. etc.. )

Would I paint 360' of fence to get an implement? heck.. I'd PUT IN 360' of fence to get an implement.. (grin)

Some paints can be blown on with an electric sprayer.

Concrete? My exp has been that it excelerates wood rot. The posts should stick in the ground fine.. Lookup 'friction pile' if the eng. in you needs to be satisfied.

My fence has been thru multiple years of hurricanes down here in florida.. my pole barn too.. nerry had a problem with those 'friction piles'.

Soundguy

Our fence is litterally falling apart. previous owner used rough sawn untreated pine. It didn't last long Wife insists on painting or staining the new fence white. I tried to convince her that we should go with cedar and let it age - no dice. I figure I'll paint it when installed, in 5 years, and in 10 years my daughter will be 12 and maybe I can bribe her to do it?

Its amazing what you will sign up to do when you are in the process of shopping for a new tractor. I'm sure the rest of y'all would paint 360 feet of fence for a backhoe

Attached is an old picture of the fence - looks good from a distance.

We'll Probably go with 3 boards this time around. 360 feet of fence with (3) 8' double gates (4' each side). We will also wrap it with wire to keep the kids and dogs in (we live on state highway).

Costs for pressure treated - 4x4 post, 2x6 board - $1,200. For Cedar - 5x5 post, 2x6 rail $3,700. Fence company quoted $650 to remove old fence, and $3,100 labor to install new one plus material. Wire mesh extra.

Now for the questions:

1 - What is the best way to set the posts? - I've heard that using concrete accelerates the rotting process as water gets in between the concrete and wood & has nowhere to drain. Yet I've seen lots of people recommending concrete??? The engineer geek in me would love it if someone could reference a university extension study that looked into the best method. How about using sand / gravel / stonedust???

2- What to treat the post with to slow down the rotting? The back of the fence is near a stream - very wet.

3- Favorite finishing method? Wifey wants white - solid stain? paint? I think I prefer stain as it is easier to restain than repaint (scraping etc), but am open to suggestions. Favorite brands of stain/paint?

Thanks!

The fence

 

[EddieWalker]

Hazmat,

That dollar increase in price just cost me a thousand bucks. Darn!!!

One thing I forgot to mention about vinyl fences are the gates are pure junk. It's probably the biggest flaw with them. Instead of using what they sell, I bought a normal ranch gate and attached three rails to it with self taping screws.

The trick is making the post strong enough to suppor the gate. I bought some 5 inch square metal tubing, cut the notches for the rails and welded on the hinges. I set it in concrete and attached the gate. It's solid!!!

I've seen inserts that you can buy to stiffen the vinyl posts that are supposed to do the same thing. I've also read that rebar and concrete inside the post will also work. Another option is trimming down a 6x6 post to fit inside the vinly post and pour concrete to hold it in place.

Here's what my gate looks like.

Eddie

 

[nolefan]

I put in around 325' linear feet of picket fence around parts of my yard about 12 years ago. 4x4 pt posts with 2x4 pt rails and alternating pt 1x4 & 1x2 pickets. We also wanted it painted white and I went with Behr's Solid Stain (pinto white). I am very pleased with the appearance and it held up very well. I just recently had it repainted (sprayed) with the same product. I set the posts in concrete and there are no signs whatsoever of rotting at the base. The environment down here is pretty harsh with high humidity and rainfall in the summer along with your occasional hurricanes. The only thing I would be concerned about is the new pt wood formula. I have used alot of the old formula(CCA) pressure treated wood on various projects with very good results as far as not rotting or falling subject to pest damage. On my fence I let it weather over 6 months to make sure the moisture was out before painting it. Not sure if the new stuff would require any different steps.

 

[hazmat]

Since the fence company wants $4k for the labor - ($3,100 fence, $650 demo, $250 to add wire mesh) I'm itching to do the job myself. How long will it take assuming 3pt post hole digger or rental unit? I haven't dug many holes, but I've never dug up a rock in my yard. Yes - very rare for New England, but my yard is ancient river silt.

I'm thinking 45 hours + gate (1 hour each 8 foot section to dig hole, set post & nail on 3 rails. Am I way off base? I know it is dependent on how fast the auger works & if there actually rocks in there...

I'm trying to convince the wife to get a backhoe with the new tractor - seems she'd rather give the fence company $4,000 than let me get the backhoe. Sometimes women go beyond illogical to spiteful Maybe I should buy her some flowers

 

[hazmat]

Hazmat,

That dollar increase in price just cost me a thousand bucks. Darn!!!

The price of PVC is directly tied to the price of oil.

 

[forgeblast]

i would figure on a nice long weekend. If there is no rock then you will fly through it with the auger. Just watch your pants, they like to grab.
.... but since you have a fence in place, why not just use the holes that you will have when you rip out the posts. you have the layout already so your just "replacing". i would think that it would go so much faster then you think. plus demo is always fun. once you rip out a post just put a new one in its place have two up fit the rails and move on.
I had hit a couple bad shelves of rock that i had to move the fence a foot or so to one side. This caused me to have to reorder some rails and it took me a bit longer to finish. But after the rails were done i made my gates and added the fencing. I did put on the automatic latches but the dogs worked together to get out now i have the manual latches and the dogs stay put.
after the fencing i sprayed it. The fence just blends right in.
good luck
Forgeblast

 

[hazmat]

I'd love to just pull & replace, but we are moving 2 (of 4) sides of the fence. Additionally, the exisiting posts are only set 18" to 24" in the ground. I'd like to go 3-4 feet for better stability - so I still need the auger (or a shovel & strong back)

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm thinking 45 hours + gate (1 hour each 8 foot section to dig hole, set post & nail on 3 rails. Am I way off base? I know it is dependent on how fast the auger works & if there actually rocks in there...

An hour a post is usually pretty safe. On my tractor, it's about five minutes to dig the hole, but more like ten minutes getting into position and lining it up.

With a two man, hand held auger, it's allot faster to set it up and drill them straight.

I've never ran a one man auger, but I've dug allot of holes by hand. About a month ago, I pulled ten posts and reused two holes, dug six new holes, set the posts and filled with concrete in six hours by myself.

It really depends on your soil and what you run into. A hole an hour should be pretty easy to do, but one bad hole and you can spend all day on it.

Take your time and it's pretty simple to do your own fence. Stop when you're tired and don't settle for "good enough."

Eddie

 

[KaiB]

Howdy all...

I grew up in rural horse country Virginia; built mile after mile of fence using locust post and oak rail. This was during the 70's and its all still there.

Been in OK for quite a while so I have to ask...in the area from PA down to VA, is nobody using locust/oak anymore.

I know one thing has changed. Even the rich can no longer afford to paint white; most is creosote.

 

[Soundguy]

One mor ething.. And you probably already know this so ignore if you do.. remember to stagger the gap on the rails.. I' start top and bottom rails with full 16' board, and have middle rail start with an 8' board.. go from there..

Soundguy

I'd love to just pull & replace, but we are moving 2 (of 4) sides of the fence. Additionally, the exisiting posts are only set 18" to 24" in the ground. I'd like to go 3-4 feet for better stability - so I still need the auger (or a shovel & strong back)

 

[nolefan]

KaiB- I plan on using locust for the fence I need to put up on our property in N. Carolina. It is still used alot around here for fenceposts, split rails, bridges, etc. Lasts forever, very strong but hard as a rock even when green. I will be pre drilling before using screws and lags. Can get it at alot of the small mills that are scattered around here.