3 PH power down trick?

jmc · Feb 9, 2004

With the inability in some cases to get a post hole digger to penetrate, or to peel up stubborn ice/dirt with a blade, it seems like power down on the 3 PH might be handy. I can see how it could get awkward to use with a back blade as the contour changes but this is just about the mechanical feasibility. Like most ideas under the sun, someone has probably tried it, but just in case, I'll try to describe what I think would work.

Add a heavy bar between the implement ends of the lower links.

Figure out a way to connect both the top link and a hydraulic cylinder to the top link attachment point on the tractor.

Connect the other end of the cylinder to the midpoint of the previously added bar.

Lower the 3 PH lever as far as possible. Extending the cylinder drives the lower links down while the top link and implement orientation follow passively as before.

Lifting the 3 PH requires some coordination though. Either you need to retract the 3 PH lever and cylinder lever simultaneously, or you need a float position on the cylinder control while you lift the 3 PH control.

Does this make sense?

John

OkeeDon · Feb 9, 2004

Now, you've got me thinking. Since there is no power down onthe normal 3-point lift hydraulics. would it hurt anything to ignore it and use your system to both raise and lower? Put the regular 3 point control in full down, then control the actual height of the implement using your system, or, perhaps better yet, a pair of independent cylinders attached to brackets on the tractor and the ends of the 3 point arms. Push down if you need it, and raise the implement with the power down cylinders, and also control tilt by working the power down cylinders independently.

When you want to return to normal operation, pull a couple of pins and disconnect the power down cylinders. You could mount the control sticks for the P-D cylinders like the brake pedals on my TC18 - a flip-off connector would make them work together or allow them to work independently.

Interesting thoughts. I won't have time or facilities to play with it until my barn is built.

rdbrumfield · Feb 9, 2004

The power down idea could be a good one. I agree with not using the 3pt. Just leave it in the down position and use the remote cyl. Putting one cyl in the middle might be a problem with the drive shaft though. You have me thinking about the rear blade. The ability to get some down pressure would be nice at times.

Soundguy · Feb 9, 2004

Some older tractors with no lift have use a retrofit and a dual actig cylinder. i saw one on a farmall H like this. Alos I've seen older retrofit systems that use a small single acting hyd cylinder hooked to the upper lift arms and somewhere on the top casting using a bracket.

Engaging this single acting cylinder while your 3pt is in the down position will put pressure on the upper lift arms.. forcing the implement down.

The system would need a tap to the hyd system, a spool valve and a relief valve. Once the downpressure is 'done', letting the spool valve go back to center would relieve the oil pressure on the cylinder, and then using the 3pt to raise the implement would force the oil back out of the upper cylinder with no restrictions.

Alternately I've seen little tractors.. like cubs and garden tarctors with homeade 3pts.. that used a bottle jack. The jack was situated with the handle at the operators platform.. you just grabbed it and 'jacked' the lift up... you could reverse this, and use it to force the lift down... just remember to release the valve when you are done...

Seems like a bit of work.

Soundguy

keeney · Feb 9, 2004

Wouldn't it be easier to just pile some weight on the auger or blade frame? I think I have even seen pictures of rear blades with a shaft welded on top to hold dumbell plates stacked on top. You could do the same with the hole digger as well.

3-pt down-force on an auger might make sense, but with a rear blade, I would think you would quickly lose traction on the rear wheels.

- Rick

gator · Feb 9, 2004

This was discussed a few years back. Someone pointed out that the reason the TPH has no down pressure is because it would lift the rear wheels off the ground. In the case of my tractor and other 2 wheel drives, this would mean you would go nowhere. A FWD tractor would mean just the fronts would be driving. They also pointed out the implements that need to dig in have angled teeth to dig when being pulled forward.
I could see the use for downward pressure for a post hole digger though since the tractor is stationary.
Just my 2 pennies on the subject.

Soundguy · Feb 9, 2004

I doubt you could feasable put enough weight on an auger to make a difference. Though i have seen 'helper' poles attatched, to be pressed down by another person.

My comments about down pressure were more or less directed at that one use. Down pressure , other than static weights on a box blade or disc would seem to be counter productive. Besides.. a properly adjusted angle of cut on a blade will make it tend to bit deeper anyway.. same as a plow..

Soundguy

keeney · Feb 10, 2004

A cat-1 3ph can lift nearly 1200 pounds - more if its cat-2. It sounds like you could add 800 lbs of down-force if you wanted to just by stacking on 16 50-lb dumbell plates.

I do agree that for the post-hole digger, power-down may be kind of neat because then you don't have a 1200 lb implement to deal with mounting and un-mounting, but from a simplicity point of view, welding on a single, verticle, 1" diameter x 24" long shaft onto the auger frame sounds a lot easier.

I think that anybody standing near enough to the auger to push down on it while it is running is crazy. Those things can tear off limbes and hands pretty easy if it was to snag your shirt or something.

- Rick

Taylortractornut · Feb 12, 2004

JMC it would work great lots of Case Ford/New Holland and MF industrial 2 wheel drive tractors had power down. THey have loaders and a power down 3 point hitch and the box blade. When the wheels get off the ground your usually quicke enough to give it a quick pickup and it wot rut in usually. Ive spent alot of days on a NH 455 landscape loader with a box blade finishing house sites. On a PHD some folks ad a hydraulic cylinder from the top of the yoke to the arm and it prvides enough weight to pick the rear end up in the air. wit the proper blade adjustment with the down pressure you can doo alot of things with a 2 wheel drive. Adding weights to a box blade will help but it will still jump on the gravel roads. I added 800 pouns to the 8 foot blade on the tractor at work and it still jumped up and down. the down pressure makes a more rigid plane for it to ride on and it wont jump around much. I eventually used a come along to hold the blade down to get the road graded.

kensfarm · Feb 13, 2004

I was wondering if you just ran an cable from the FEL under the tractor.. through the towbar w/ clevis.. and up to the PHD. Then raising the FEL up.. would pull the PHD down.. of course you might have to attach some eye-hole guides on the underside.. but it could work.

virgil · Feb 13, 2004

if your tractor has remotes then you can add a hydraulic top link. This will be handy when using rippers, or a box blade.
I myself do not recomend altering a post hole digger. There are at least 2 people in Parker county Texas that have only one arm because they were leaning on the digger! One of these acts of gross stupidity ended up with one of my compeditors going out of buisness. (law suit) The person who was hurt, still has only one arm, the lawers got all the money. and a fine buisnessman was wiped out.
I sell a good post hole digger ($395.00)---BUT IT WILL NOT DIG ROCK---IT WILL NOT EVEN DIG HARD CLAY IN AUGUST. It WILL dig dirt all day long. It Will yank your arm off. It WILL mangel you for life. it is by far the most dangerous piece of equipment I sell. I have lost a lot of sales due to telling the truth about these man-eaters, and refusing to sell to someone who tell me they are going to modify the digger.
If you need a digger for rock, then I can help you there also, just add a zero on the right hand side of the above price..... It will SAFELY knock a hole in interstate 20.
Consider hiring someone who has a digger that can properly and safely do the job.
Keep everyone you love and care about FAR AWAY from from the post hole digger.... or for that matter, anything that is pto driven. It ain't worth getting hurt.

Taylortractornut · Feb 13, 2004

Virgil When you ad a hydraulic cylinder to a post hole digger you dont have to be near it. It just adds gravity. I used to modify equipment for a living. I usually did it for different mfg companies that didnt have the time to tool down a machine to make a few orders of diggers. I dont have a use for digging holes in rock unless I rent a track drill or an excavator with an auger or coring drill head.

virgil · Feb 14, 2004

Mr Taylor;
You are correct. A person doen not need to any where around the digger when it is in operation. The operators manuel clearly states to stay 25 feet away.
In the severe rock that us Texans are blessed with, it will require more than a hydraulic cylinder to safely do the job. stronger, diamond tipped, carbide steel ($1,500.00) augers, stronger gear boxes and a redisighned superstructure to handle all the stress. (more $$$$) Most importantly, it will require an operator who knows and respects the machine he is operating.
Evedently sir, you are blessed with the knowledge, skill, and tools to properly augment equipment. With your experance, I am sure there would be no saftey issues to worry about. HOWEVER...
Liability issues are a great concern for the retailer. There is always someone out there ready to blame someone else for their own lack of thinking.
We own a rental store and tractor dealership. Its amazing what insurance cost, and how easy it is for someone to sue and collect. Kinda like --- you sue the bar tender because you got drunk and run over someone.... Know what I mean?

Glenn9643 · Feb 14, 2004

We had an old Farmall Super-C with down pressure on the hitch when I was a boy. The only real benefit that I remember was jacking the rear of the tractor up to adjust the wheels or fix flats... Using dirt engaging implements just required you to pay attention.

Taylortractornut · Feb 14, 2004

I see where you are coming from now Virgil, I mosty modified the diggers for a few fence companies run by experienced folks. I had a 34 year old mchanic come i nthe shop today while i was casting aluminum parts with my foundry. He had some fingers in a bandage when i asked to told me he pt his fingers in a turbo fan on a truck enging to see it he could hold it. I ran him off while i was pouring the metal. About 10 miles from here the limestne is a pita. I put up a pole barn frame with a pc300lc Komatsu excavator with a 24 inch carbide head auger. i picked the machine up with its own weight and let it grind adding water acasionally to keep it cool. I got 6 holes in 12 hours.

BillG_in_TX · Feb 16, 2004

If it's down pressure you want, I just stumbled across this web page.
Several options, but they might be pricey! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

OkeeDon · Feb 16, 2004

I liked the idea of the FEL mounted, hydraulic PHD so much, I did a Google search and came up with this one from LandPride. No price shown, but the model 25 is suitable for smaller CUTs as it takes from 5 to 12 GPM, vs. the BellTec which needs at least 10 GPM. The LandPride page says, "easily bolted to the side of a front end loader." This allows you to control the height better and use the FEL for down pressure.

It doesn't say if you can use one of the circuits from the FEL or whether you have to have front mounted auxilliary remotes (or long hoses to rear remotes). Since it might be difficult to keep it going straight down if you don't have both height and curl control on the FEL, I suspect the auxilliary remotes might be needed.

Anyone know about these, plus how much they cost? I really like the idea of sitting in the seat, controlling the PHD, and being able to see what I'm doing.

JerryG · Feb 17, 2004

Don,
Take a look at this one form Danuser, it is rated a 5-10 GPM. Danuser Model #8300

Ledgemere Farm · Feb 17, 2004

My 1954 Farmall 200 has a Fast-Hitch with a dual-acting ram on it. If I lower the drawbar on a stump, it will lift the back tires clear. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif