336 Riddle

   / 336 Riddle #1  

RCCB

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
21
Location
Central Kansas
Tractor
Ford 8000, MF 1085, IH T-340
I'm hitting my head against a wall. My "new" baler did not tie on one side. I read the manual and sharpen the knives and adjusted the billet hook. I got it to bale about 25 bales before the one side stopped tying a knot. I replaced the knife and tried again. Does not work, no knot on either side of the twine. I compared it to the other side, and I can not see a difference why one side ties and the other side does not. Please help, I really need to bale some wheat straw so I can get the field planted.
 
   / 336 Riddle #2  
I'm hitting my head against a wall. My "new" baler did not tie on one side. I read the manual and sharpen the knives and adjusted the billet hook. I got it to bale about 25 bales before the one side stopped tying a knot. I replaced the knife and tried again. Does not work, no knot on either side of the twine. I compared it to the other side, and I can not see a difference why one side ties and the other side does not. Please help, I really need to bale some wheat straw so I can get the field planted.

I have found it best if possible to either have someone feed hay/staw into the unit and watch the knotters. See what they are doing, or even walking along side while someone bales. Just go slow and reduce RPM's and keep your distance. Even feeding the unit from the front, use caution, don't want to get caught in it.

Look to see that both knotters are rotating and that everything looks the same.

Why did you replace the knife? Was it damaged? Make sure the wiper arm and scraper are moving correctly.
 
   / 336 Riddle
  • Thread Starter
#3  
The reason I replaced the knife was due to the fact it was not cutting the twine. So after it went through the knot tying cycle, there would be 2 pieces of twine in the twine discs. I'm going to clean the baler out and run it empty to see if I can watch the knotter and compare it to the one that works.
 
   / 336 Riddle #4  
with the tractor shut down put some grease on the "duckbeeks" on the underside of the knotter. If the baler has been sitting outside with the knotter uncovered the "beeks' become rusty and the twine doesn't slide out of the beeks grip without un-knotting itself. Before i started to bale i always fingered some grease on the beeks and the bailer never missed a bale. I would pull the twine out of the knotter and run the twine from the spool through the needles then tie the twine with a square knot off somewhere to the frame and start over. good luck . . .John
 
   / 336 Riddle #5  
In order to form a properly tied bale knot, the first end of the knot must be held firmly in the twine disk, the needles must bring the other end of the twine up thru the knotter frame, the tucker fingers must push the twine into the notch in the twine disk, the twine disks must turn and hold it, the bill hook must rotate, the billhook jaw must open and capture the two twine ends, the jaw must close as the bill hook rotates further, the wiper arm must scrape the newly formed knot off the billhook foot and the cutoff knife must sever the twine downstream of the newly formed knot without tearing it out of the twine disk.

Any failures in this process will lead to a 'not a knot' or busted knot condition. The twine box pull tension should be about 10 lbs for each side. The needles should slightly touch the knotter frame as they come up to keep them from vibrating causing the twine length to slackren, The tucker fingers should just barely clear the needles as they rotate, the needles must come up together far enough for the twine to arrive in the disk notch, the twine disk must hold firmly both ends of the twine, the billhook jaw must open far enough to accept the twine pairs, the jaw tension should also be about 10 lbs, the bill hooks (as in duck bill shape, yes they are cast billet) must rotate in the right sequence, and the wiper arm actually scrapes the newly formed knot off the billhooks. Its not close, it must be a full contact scrape with a screech.

Look for too loose or too tight twine box tension, a broken tooth on the intermediate gear, a tucker finger that is late because of a twisted shaft, a twine disk clamping force that is weak, a billhook jaw not opening far enough (or fully closing) beause of a missing or work billhook jaw roller, a wiper arm missing its mark, or a dull knife that is yanking the knot loose and tearing it apart.

Don't repeatedly run the machine without hay or straw in it because there could be multiple attempts to make knots which will jamb up the billhook jaws and break them.

Nearly ALL missed ties are from tucker finger action out of adjustment or sloppy, but worn or broken springs that regulate holding tension can be major causes, too. If the wiper arm balls are worn flat because they are frozen on their shafts and not rotating, then they won't have enough travel to get the job done. It now all depends on what the condition of the twine ends is at your bad knotter, Pictures would sure help. How about a video of the roll by hand action?

Empty the straw and twine from the machine, trip the knotter drive and rotate the flywheel over by hand no more that 5 degrees per second to watch all this activity. Its a bit jerky because of all the mechanically timed engagements but its all there to see happen, in order and in slow motion.
 
   / 336 Riddle #6  
In order to form a properly tied bale knot, the first end of the knot must be held firmly in the twine disk, the needles must bring the other end of the twine up thru the knotter frame, the tucker fingers must push the twine into the notch in the twine disk, the twine disks must turn and hold it, the bill hook must rotate, the billhook jaw must open and capture the two twine ends, the jaw must close as the bill hook rotates further, the wiper arm must scrape the newly formed knot off the billhook foot and the cutoff knife must sever the twine downstream of the newly formed knot without tearing it out of the twine disk.

Any failures in this process will lead to a 'not a knot' or busted knot condition. The twine box pull tension should be about 10 lbs for each side. The needles should slightly touch the knotter frame as they come up to keep them from vibrating causing the twine length to slackren, The tucker fingers should just barely clear the needles as they rotate, the needles must come up together far enough for the twine to arrive in the disk notch, the twine disk must hold firmly both ends of the twine, the billhook jaw must open far enough to accept the twine pairs, the jaw tension should also be about 10 lbs, the bill hooks (as in duck bill shape, yes they are cast billet) must rotate in the right sequence, and the wiper arm actually scrapes the newly formed knot off the billhooks. Its not close, it must be a full contact scrape with a screech.

Look for too loose or too tight twine box tension, a broken tooth on the intermediate gear, a tucker finger that is late because of a twisted shaft, a twine disk clamping force that is weak, a billhook jaw not opening far enough (or fully closing) beause of a missing or work billhook jaw roller, a wiper arm missing its mark, or a dull knife that is yanking the knot loose and tearing it apart.

Don't repeatedly run the machine without hay or straw in it because there could be multiple attempts to make knots which will jamb up the billhook jaws and break them.

Nearly ALL missed ties are from tucker finger action out of adjustment or sloppy, but worn or broken springs that regulate holding tension can be major causes, too. If the wiper arm balls are worn flat because they are frozen on their shafts and not rotating, then they won't have enough travel to get the job done. It now all depends on what the condition of the twine ends is at your bad knotter, Pictures would sure help. How about a video of the roll by hand action?

Empty the straw and twine from the machine, trip the knotter drive and rotate the flywheel over by hand no more that 5 degrees per second to watch all this activity. Its a bit jerky because of all the mechanically timed engagements but its all there to see happen, in order and in slow motion.

Well said! That is alot of detail and described better than I could. I will add only a couple of items. Be sure twine is threaded exactly as the book shows. I have seen many knotter problems due to twine being run under the roller in needle rather than over it or from someone missing one of the twine guides. Next, be sure the hay dogs(spring loaded levers in bale chamber behind the needle entry area) are all there and no broken springs. Sometimes, especially in straw which is springier than hay, the straw can spring back when plunger moves away from it and push the twine away from the billhook. That can also cause missed knots.
 
   / 336 Riddle #7  
zzvyb6
I worked on many sq wire balers and very few twine(very few down here in the 60's-80's). I understand that the billhook must catch both ends of twine and rotate but I've never understood exactly how the knot is created. Is the knot actually formed as the scraper is pushing twine off of billhook ??? What part does twine disc play other than cutting/gripping twine? Thanks,Jim
 
   / 336 Riddle #8  
zzvyb6
I worked on many sq wire balers and very few twine(very few down here in the 60's-80's). I understand that the billhook must catch both ends of twine and rotate but I've never understood exactly how the knot is created. Is the knot actually formed as the scraper is pushing twine off of billhook ??? What part does twine disc play other than cutting/gripping twine? Thanks,Jim

Yes. The knot is actually formed during the process of scraping the twine loop off of the billhook. That's the reason for the zero clearance requirement of the scraper to the billhook foot. That's also the reason for the hook on the end of the jaw: to turn the loop inside out. If you have kids around the house, its a great exercise to 'play' this task out by using their fingers and your hands. If you happen to have an extra billhook around (or can make one out of wood using a spring type clothes pin) you can quickly get the big picture.

Yeah, that's all the twine disk does, but, if you think that's a minor role, just wait until it fails its simple task!
 
   / 336 Riddle
  • Thread Starter
#9  
What i did last night.I removed all of the straw and twine from the baler. Then I ran it at an idle and cycled the knotters so I could compare the the right side and the left side (the one that ties). To me they both looked the same. My wife showed up, so I replaced the twine and had her turn the flywheel. They both made a half knot. So I headed to the field to try it out. After the first bale, I stopped and went back to check on it. The right side did not make a knot. This went on until the left side became dull and I headed to the shed. In my attempt to remove and replace the knife, it was held on by rivets. I broke the arm. I'm rethinking baler ownership.
 
   / 336 Riddle #10  
If you are going to re-thread it anyway, switch sides of the twine and see if it makes a difference. Or try a new roll of twine.
 

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