40 series compared to 60 series and Tier4

[Farmer495]

Are the 40 series tractors Tier3 and are all the 60 series tractors Tier4? Would a 2012 7060 Kubota tractor be Tier4 even though it's a 2012 tractor?

I'm just assuming that every 60 series Kubota is Tier4. Is there something on the engine to look for to see if it's Tier4? Is there a label anywhere on the tractor that says it's Tier4?

I want to avoid all the new smog stuff and I'm hoping for some simple advice on what to look for when looking at used Kubota tractors.

Thank you.

When I was shopping the M60 series were all DPF etc. Kubota offered (at least locally) M7040SU without DPF at same time as M7060 with DPF up until 2015/2016.

Pretty sure if you open the hood there will be an emissions sticker on it somewhere telling you what it meets.

 

[EddieWalker]

It's just not that easy. You know that tractors aren't built by year but by model. So the 40 were built early on and then sold 2007 to about 2012 which would make them Interim Tier 4 not Tier 3. Tiers 1 thru 3 were earlier than 2007... maybe that is what you are really looking for.

Interim Tier4 (roughly 2007-2012) was a way to get around the regulations for a few years before the 60 series which was true Tier IV. Those Interim Tier4 in 2007 didn't have the DPF and computers, but they did have Indirect Injection, retarded timing, and some had an EGR valve setup that let them get around the new Full Tier4 regs that were on the horizon at the time. So the Interim Tier4 tractors didn't have all the latest pollution control systems, common rail, and Direct Injection with computer controlled injectors, but that doesn't mean they run quite like vintage diesels do.

Interim Tier4 (again, roughly 2007-2012) run clean at any constant RPM, but throw out a lot of smoke & stink when not up to temperature or when changing speed or load even after they are properly warmed up because the ones with EGR doesn't kick in until the engine is full warm.

That makes Interim Tier4 machines with EGRs fine for constant RPM field work - they burn nice and clean and efficiently doing that kind of work. But if you were to be doing a lot of back and forth loader work or working rough land requiring lots of speed and load changes then you may find that Tier4 Interims with EGR use a lot of fuel & the require you to have some tolerance for fumes & smoke.

So if you want an old style simple diesel, get a pre-2007 16 speed and use it. It may well last for decades yet with simple maintenance - I think you already know that.
Otherwise in later ones you get some degree of pollution control depending on the year - and some compromises. But not all bad. Some folks get good performance with their newer large tractors in full Tier4 and don't even notice the pollution control. New ones working right sure do burn a lot cleaner and stink less and cost more.
rScotty

Thank you, this is very helpful. I'm still looking and hopefully when the right tractor shows up, I'll realize that it's the one!!! My main use for the tractor will be for mowing. Depending on the size of tractor that I buy, I'll either want a 12 foot or 15 foot batwing.

I looked at an old Ford tractor that didn't have too many hours on it, but it was pretty rough and not something that I wanted to spend any time in.

I think 16 speed transmissions are important, but that might be where I make a bad decision. I make myself nervous sometimes.

I'm very hesitant to buy Tier4. If I end up doing that, I would probably look at brand new so I have the best dealer support possible. Ideally, I want it to be as simple as possible, but with AC and a comfortable seat.

 

[blitzn00]

The EPA regulates engines, not the final equipment "tractors for example. So be sure to look at the engine model year to understand the emissions requirements. Tier4i was primarily a NOx reduction requirement, tier 4 final was a NOx and PM requirement. Diesel engines, when tuned to reduce NOx increase PM, and vice versa. So "most" tier 4 final tractor engines have been tuned to reduce NOx "in cylinder" and reduce PM through "after treatment" (ie, the DPF). Therefore no DEF (SCR) is required. The biggest misunderstanding I have found with people's understanding of DPF's is the fact that two types exist. Passive (no supplementary heating is available for DPF to get it hot enough to effectively regen - it relies only on the exhaust temp) and Active - fuel or other source of heat is available to supplement exhaust temp. These active systems are pretty rock solid and effective today, but do have electronics and more components than a passive DPF. Active systems look at exhaust temp, which needs to be approx 700 degrees F, to complete a regen. If the temp isn't high enough, they create additional heat, on tractors it's mostly through a fuel burner upstream from the DPF. This is why running an engine at "high RPM", is not the same as running the engine at "high loads". High loads = higher exhaust temps.

The problems with DPF's in newer systems are not anywhere as common as 10 years ago. I would avoid early DPF systems, and I would avoid passive systems as well (although - with passive systems one could just remove the DPF and have no adverse operating effects, just adverse environmental effects).

 

[EddieWalker]

My issue with Tier4 is based on my fear of having to fix it. I've had enough experience with tractors to know that everything breaks, and the more complex it is, the harder and more expensive it is to fix. I will own the next tractor that I buy for the rest of my life, or until we sell the farm decades from now. I know that even if it just sits for ten years, I will have to fix something on it eventually. The less things to fix, the happier I will be.

 

[jaydee325]

There is some misinformation here and I won't go into that. All I can say is don't get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out Tier X.

Easiest is to just look under the hood. If there is a BIG can instead of a muffler, it probably has exhaust after treatment (diesel particulate filter or diesel oxidation catalyst), which it sounds like you want to say away from.

But, there is another caveat, some manufacturers used exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) to meet the emissions requirements applicable at that time. These sometimes need repair. That is not so obvious to looking under the hood. I've found you can sometimes determine if an EGR is used by looking though the parts schematic for the applicable model and serial number.

 

[EddieWalker]

I just found this 2007 New Holland TN75DA online and it's kind of interesting.

https://www.himesequipment.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/195461189/2007-new-holland-tn75da-40-hp-to-99-hp-tractors?dlr=1&accountcrmid=9111553&settingscrmid=9111555

Being that it's a 2007, does that mean it should not have any smog stuff added to it?

 

[RickB]

I believe they used EGR to meet either Tier II or III.

 

[rScotty]

I just found this 2007 New Holland TN75DA online and it's kind of interesting.

https://www.himesequipment.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/195461189/2007-new-holland-tn75da-40-hp-to-99-hp-tractors?dlr=1&accountcrmid=9111553&settingscrmid=9111555

Being that it's a 2007, does that mean it should not have any smog stuff added to it?

Nice. A 16 speed? I think that's what you want for mowing.

Maybe it has an EGR. Does Messick's sell New Holland? If so, you can go look at their parts catalogues to see if it has EGR added to it. 2007 is a "maybe so". But still, EGR is simplified "smog stuff" and you can fix it if it clogs up or just delete it.

The TN75TA has a turbo, so it it does have EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), it has to have an exhaust gas cooler in line with the muffler. The exhaust gas cooler looks like another muffler in series, but it is water cooled.
EGR basically works by diverting a small part of the exhaust back into the intake to be reburned - but it has to be cooled first. So a exhaust gas cooler means EGR.

Read that #13 from Blitzn00 for a real good explanation of EGR for that period 2007-2012. He also explains why it is that some of the interim Tier4 systems are so smokey.... It isn't the EGR system, it is just what the manufacturers were allowed to do to meet the letter of Tier4 interim requirements.....by careful interpretation of the regs they were able to stay legal to sell interim Tier4 tractors from 2007 to 2014 - while at the same time they completely avoided complying with the whole reason behind those emission requirements.

rScotty

 

[Paystar]

We're getting way complicated here, that may confuse people. Mr. Walker wanted to know if the M60 series is tier 4 and yes it is. And yes it has a DPF. From the start Kubota has said they committed to the DPF solution because they feel that the mass EGR and solutions others are using can cause excess under hood heat.
I can't say if it does or doesn't, but that is what Kubota had stated.

 

[rScotty]

We're getting way complicated here, that may confuse people. Mr. Walker wanted to know if the M60 series is tier 4 and yes it is. And yes it has a DPF. From the start Kubota has said they committed to the DPF solution because they feel that the mass EGR and solutions others are using can cause excess under hood heat.
I can't say if it does or doesn't, but that is what Kubota had stated.

Yes, there's a lot of confusion. As I read Eddie's original question, he wanted to know if every 60 series Kubota had the Tier4 emissions equipment - which is DPF (Diesel Particle Filter) and a computer to control the emissions & injectors. As far as I know they all do have those things. And nobody has said any different.

He also asked if the 40 series made from 2007 to 2012 was Tier3. Well, it was and it wasn't.
What the 40 series was, was Interim Tier4....which is sort of halfway between Tier3 and Tier4. And it got that way using old fashioned EGR technology which met the specs for NO (Oxides of Nitrogen) but also made those Interim Tier4 engines smoke a lot and burn a lot of fuel.
But at least they didn't have DPF & computers.

Frankly I think Eddie wants what a lot of people say they want - a simple old fashioned diesel with lots of gears and no fancy anything. Something they can wrench on & already understand.
For Kubotas, that would be the 30 series or early 40 series. Good luck finding a low hour one.

Paystar, yours is the first comment I've ever heard about excessive under hood heat. Where did you hear that? Reliable source?
EGR should be cooler than DPF. Not that it matters, since I doubt that anyone offers an stand alone EGR type emissions control on a new tractor anymore. EGR alone can't possibly meet today's Tier4 specs.

Big diesels are now coming with DPF & DEF both. Mercedes has that. Very clean burning and high efficiency. Two systems and two computers, but no problems. So it can be done.
rScotty