.40S&W vrs .45ACP
- Thread starter LetsRoll
- Start date
- Views: 15330
joshuabardwell
Elite Member
Although .40 and 10mm are approximately the same dimensions, 10mm is actually its own caliber, distinct from .40.
RoyJackson
Rest in Peace
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2001
- Messages
- 23,144
- Location
- Bethel, Vermont
- Tractor
- John Deere 4052R Cab,, Deere 855D UTV, Z920A Zero Turn Mower and assorted implements
Any problems with the Glock feeding hollowpoints? Which one do you have...the 21, 30 or 36?
I'm a 9mm fan, but I'm considering going to .45 ACP (I've got to .45 ACP handguns now but not ones I want to carry) but I'll want a Glock.
okuma2540
New member
I too have both a .45acp and a .40s&w. Even though they both leave large holes in targets, I give the advantage to the .45 acp. It is a slow moving powerful round that will push through taking anything it hit and pushing it back.( hit and arm and its gone). While the .40 s&w has great number it does not have the weight behind it to do the same damage the 45 can. Oh don't get me wrong it will kill and hurt someone but it will not destroy the target like the .45 does.
joshuabardwell
Elite Member
Okuma, the things you are saying are simply not backed up by evidence. The idea that a bullet can "knock back" a person, or a part of a person's body, is, by and large, a myth. It's true that there is a difference between a slow, heavy bullet and fast, light bullet. Kinetic energy equals mass times velocity squared. Momentum equals mass times velocity. Therefore, a light bullet can easily make up kinetic energy by adding a small amount of velocity (since velocity is squared in the kinetic energy formula), but it can't make up momentum very easily at all. Their additional momentum means that heavier bullets do better at penetrating obstacles without being deflected. But when it comes to soft targets like humans, momentum is pretty irrelevant, because all bullets are going to easily penetrate flesh. In short, a bullet can't "knock back" a person or a part of a person, because the bullet simply penetrates. In addition, the actual kinetic energy of a bullet is relatively low (approximately equal to being knocked over by a baseball); it's just that it's all delivered in a very short period of time, in a small area/volume.
As a final illustration of why bullets can't/don't knock people or parts of people back, consider Newton's 2nd law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If bullets carried enough kinetic energy to knock people over, then you would be knocked over every time you fired the gun. But that doesn't happen. In fact, you can probably hold a gun out sideways, with a terrible stance, and a limp wrist, and still fire it and not have your arm or hand be significantly deflected. Oh, you won't hit much, but you sure won't be "knocked back".
IMO, one other difference that velocity makes is the likelihood of hollowpoint rounds expanding. If you're shooting ball ammo, then IMO, it's kinetic energy and shot placement that matter. From that perspective, .40 and .45 are pretty comparable, since they have comparable kinetic energy. But I would give the advantage to .40 if you're shooting hollowpoints, because I think the faster-moving rounds are going to be more likely to expand when they hit, all else being equal. And once these rounds expand, I don't think there is actually much difference between .40 and .45. Frankly, I don't think there's that much difference between 9mm, .40, and .45, if you're shooting hollowpoints.
okuma2540
New member
really, no difference between a 9, 40, 45 take a steel plate for your demonstration if you must and shoot it with each tell me the deformation of the 45 is not larger than the other two. second if you must point out velocity makes up difference take your argument and take a 357 a smaller bullet higher velocity will go through the plate with little effort very little deformation. the myth about knock down power is that it throws a person down or thrown backward. a 357 will go through both shoulders of deer leaving a nice exit hole not much bigger that the entrance the 45 hitting the same shoulder mushrooms out completely devastating the shoulder it hit and most likely doesn't even make it out the other shoulder. if you believe a 9mm is even in the same class as a 45 you are sadly mistaken hollow point or not. 40 is close but it DOES NOT have the same take down power of a 45 and yes just look online and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.
johnrex62
Platinum Member
The optimal caliber is task dependent. If you are not skilled enough to ensure proper placement, no caliber is adequate so that is first priority. After that, the only relevant protection attribute is will the bullet stop the target. That will depend on a number of variables, so you have to evaluate the most likely scenario you may have to face.
The larger the target, the heavier the caliber. Dont shoot a large animal with a small caliber, but there is a range of acceptable calibers for any range of animals. The most difficult scenario will be the human target. Size, clothing, and mindset all affect the take down requirements that determine the minimum caliber. If you are facing a "standard bad guy" scenario where the threat is not immediate and both parties are still evaluating their chances, the mere presence of a handgun of any caliber may be sufficient. In the case that the threat is already active and discharge of the firearm is necessary, then the caliber makes more of a difference. Heavy clothing can sometimes affect penetration and knock-down and make a heavier caliber more effective. Swimsuits are less effective bullet protection than a heavy wool coat and several layers of clothing.
A 300lb man can be less affected than a 95lb man by a bullet impact to the shoulder or stomach. An impact to the heart or lung is usually equally effective regardless of body mass after a certain impact enegry is obtained. Mind set is yet another variable that affects the outcome of impact. The higher the motivation or a chemically altered mind can withstand much more damage than a normal brain or someone with a lower level of motivation. I have read of drugged individuals withstanding dozens of impacts from police officers, so there is always the case that the heaviest of artilillary or multiple well place impacts will be unable to stop a target. Chances are better than almost anything will suffice most of the time.
It becomes a question of what are you best able to handle effectively and are willing to carry religiously. That will be the best caliber handgun for you.
The larger the target, the heavier the caliber. Dont shoot a large animal with a small caliber, but there is a range of acceptable calibers for any range of animals. The most difficult scenario will be the human target. Size, clothing, and mindset all affect the take down requirements that determine the minimum caliber. If you are facing a "standard bad guy" scenario where the threat is not immediate and both parties are still evaluating their chances, the mere presence of a handgun of any caliber may be sufficient. In the case that the threat is already active and discharge of the firearm is necessary, then the caliber makes more of a difference. Heavy clothing can sometimes affect penetration and knock-down and make a heavier caliber more effective. Swimsuits are less effective bullet protection than a heavy wool coat and several layers of clothing.
A 300lb man can be less affected than a 95lb man by a bullet impact to the shoulder or stomach. An impact to the heart or lung is usually equally effective regardless of body mass after a certain impact enegry is obtained. Mind set is yet another variable that affects the outcome of impact. The higher the motivation or a chemically altered mind can withstand much more damage than a normal brain or someone with a lower level of motivation. I have read of drugged individuals withstanding dozens of impacts from police officers, so there is always the case that the heaviest of artilillary or multiple well place impacts will be unable to stop a target. Chances are better than almost anything will suffice most of the time.
It becomes a question of what are you best able to handle effectively and are willing to carry religiously. That will be the best caliber handgun for you.
familyman
Platinum Member
Roy, I'm surprised you don't cast your own.
forgeblast
Elite Member
One thing to think of is what other platforms you have. And if your thinking some time of breakdown situation then what will your friends be using. A bunch of us decided to go with the .40 and most have sigs (there is that "One guy" who has to have the .50 desert eagle lol). But with that platform you could also get a highpoint carabine in .40 (a whole lot of fun). Plus getting something that lets you shoot .22 makes a lot of $$ sense. The cost of the slide has paid for itself a couple of times over with the cost of .40 now.
joshuabardwell
Elite Member
okuma2540 said:
I'm speaking practically, is all. I have seen statistics on officer involved shootings that show similar rates of one shot stop for all three calibers. Human beings are not steel plates. All three calibers can get the job done.
[quote ]second if you must point out velocity makes up difference take your argument and take a 357 a smaller bullet higher velocity will go through the plate with little effort very little deformation.[/QUOTE]
.357 has far more kinetic energy than the other calibers. Not apples to apples. But anyway the fact that it goes through a steel plate means what? People are not steel plates.
I agree. You specifically referred to knocking away an arm, which is why I responded the way I did. Knock down power depends on many factors, including the psychology of the target. You seemed to be referring to the myth. I'm glad we agree.
The statistics I have seen, on officer involved shootings, indicate otherwise. If there is a difference in the calibers, it is obscured by other factors. Shoot well designed +P hollow points and you will be well defended against humans by any major caliber.