59 Ford 841 died, won't start

[sailj32]

This one is pretty much original, with an added front-end loader. It's been converted to 12V, but I'm pretty sure the starter is the original 6V unit, which seems like a fairly common practice. It has not been hard to start, but a couple days ago after an hour of loader work, it lost power and died. I was able to get it started a couple more times but no power. Started troubleshooting, still no luck. We had the coldest weather in many years a couple months ago. Temps down in the low teens for a couple weeks. I suppose this could have caused a problem if there was any water in the fuel lines or carb. But then again, I did get an hour of work this week before it died.

I'm getting spark at least on #1, but it seems a bit weak - not strong and blue - more yellow and stringy. Plugs seem good, not wet or black. Points and rotor look good, were replaced about 10 hours ago. However, the rotor seems a bit sloppy on the distributor shaft. The little clip is there, but maybe it needs to be sprung out a little?

Fuel is fairly fresh and flowing well from the tank, but there is a small leak in the tank shutoff valve that is dripping every few seconds. That drip stops if I close the valve.

I've had the carb off and apart a couple times looking for trouble, and one thing bothers me. There is always a fair amount of fuel in the air intake chamber - where the air supply pipe connects. There is a small (sintered?) brass plug in the bottom of that chamber, and it leaks a drip of gas every few seconds, down onto the oil filter and then onto the exhaust pipe. That can't be good, but I don't know if it is a new symptom. This fuel drip appears almost immediately after I put the perfectly dry carb on the engine and open up the tank shut-off valve. Is this normal? The float seems to be OK - the valve is working and the whole carb is pretty clean.

One other frustration is that even with a new battery, I only get maybe 30 seconds of cranking before the starter gets too hot and the cranking revs are too slow. I think I would need to replace the starter with a 12V model. I had this one apart when it died completely a couple years ago, and just cleaning out all the rust and dirt got it going again, but it sure does pull the battery down fast.

So I'm looking for some advice - first, does it sound like I have a problem in the carb? Should there be fuel in the air intake chamber? Dripping from the bottom?

Second, I'm starting to think I should look more at ignition. Does that sound more likely than fuel problems?

Thanks
Don

 

[sailj32]

Followup - I mis-stated about that drip from the carb. It appears immediately after I crank the engine trying to start it, not simply after opening up the fuel shutoff valve.

Thanks
Don

 

[Cbrown9064]

Sounds like the starter needs to be rebuilt, for starters (pun intended). If it is getting hot, then it is not right. Regarding the spark, start to troubleshoot that. Check a wires and see if you are getting 12v to the coil, and after coil to points, after points, etc... A bad wire or connection along that line would cause spark problems. Check points for proper operation, clean and gapped right. You want good strong blue spark.

My bet is you have a spark problem. As far as the fuel, I can't quite picture what is happening in my mind. Could it be flooded from the cranking with no run?

If would get the starter rebuilt, then go after the spark issue.

 

[sailj32]

I think I've found the main problem. Spark was pretty good straight off the coil, but one plug wire is badly corroded in the distributor cap. The wire contact broke off in the cap when I unplugged it. Small wire from coil to the distributor base was also frayed at the crimp connector. I'm going to need parts, so I'll replace all wires, cap, and might as well do points and rotor. Also plan to replace the old 6V starter with a 12V.

I think I'll leave the carburetor alone for now. Cbrown, I think you may be right that raw gas could be flooding into the air intake chamber when I crank a long time without starting. Maybe that porous plug is intended to give it a place to go?. I wish it wasn't going onto the exhaust pipe, but hopefully that will stop when the engine is able to start.

Also found that I could reduce the gas leak under the tank by tightening the bolts on the shutoff valve. It still has a smaller leak around the fuel line, and I can't get a wrench to turn it quite enough in that tight space. I can grind down an old wrench (never throw anything away) and get a bit more turn on it.

Thanks for the help - appreciate any other ideas, but plenty to do for now.

 

[sailj32]

Followup: I've replaced most of the ignition parts, plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, points. The replacement distributor cap was labeled with "1" in the wrong place, got that worked out. The coil I bought may be wrong kind - it has an internal resistor and the original is for external resistor. Didn't change that, but I still may do so. Gapped the points carefully, but did not check timing.

Now I have a different problem. While holding the starter switch the starter spins, the engine fires and seems to run smoothly. Throttle and choke controls function as expected. Release the key to the Run position, and the engine dies immediately.

I need to investigate wiring of the switch, although this has never been a problem before. However, in an attempt to attach a remote starter switch I removed and replaced the switch, so might have damaged a wire or the switch itself.

Any other ideas for me to follow up? Might this symptom be caused by the incorrect distributor cap? The fact that it is mis-labelled is troubling. However, I don't see how the engine could run smoothly and respond normally to throttle if the timing is far off.

 

[Cbrown9064]

A "twist to start" switch is not standard on these tractors and bypasses the start in gear protection of the push button on the transmission. If it were my tractor, I would re-wire with a simple on-off switch and get the push button on the trans working again.

But to your problem, it sounds like you may have miss-wired the key switch. Depending on the style of switch, some isolate (turn off) the "run" circuit while in the "start" circuit. It must have wired it so the coil is getting juice when you are in "start", but not when you are in "run".

Since this switch is a non-standard set up, there is no telling how it is wired without pics or a diagram. If you were to go through all the trouble of drawing us a diagram, you would solve it yourself...

Start by examining where/who gets power in each position.

 

[sailj32]

A "twist to start" switch is not standard on these tractors and bypasses the start in gear protection of the push button on the transmission. If it were my tractor, I would re-wire with a simple on-off switch and get the push button on the trans working again.

But to your problem, it sounds like you may have miss-wired the key switch. Depending on the style of switch, some isolate (turn off) the "run" circuit while in the "start" circuit. It must have wired it so the coil is getting juice when you are in "start", but not when you are in "run".

Since this switch is a non-standard set up, there is no telling how it is wired without pics or a diagram. If you were to go through all the trouble of drawing us a diagram, you would solve it yourself...

Start by examining where/who gets power in each position.

Great input - I did mis-state what I did with the switch however. I didn't unwire it or wire in a new one, I just pulled it out of the cowling, examined the wiring and checked voltages with a bug light. Couldn't find a problem so I put it back in the cowling. In that process I may have broken a wire or a crimp contact. I'll follow that lead. I didn't realize that the original used the foot button on the transmission, and also didn't realize that the button was interlocked. I like the idea of getting that fixed, but hopefully I can get it running so I can move it out of the pasture into the barn where working on it is easier. In the couple years I've had it I developed a solid habit of starting in neutral, never have made that mistake.

Thanks
Don

 

[sailj32]

Final outcome: It's running well now. That last problem was a wire pulled off one end of the coil resistor. I'm sure I pulled it when removing the starter switch. I couldn't see it up inside the dashboard cowling until today when it is sunny. Yes, the sun is shining in Seattle - must have something to do with the outcome of the Super Bowl!

So I think the root cause was a corroded spark plug wire, and then after fixing that I caused the new problem with the coil resistor wire. Thanks to all who provided advice. My next project will be to replace the starter motor and rewire the starter switch to the original foot pushbutton. And then I think rebuild the hydraulics to reduce the leakage.

 

[Soundguy]

i'd bet you money that you don't have a coil with an actual internal resistor.

you may have a coil that says it either does or does not need serial resistance. but an internal resistive element would be folly.

cap marked wrong?

doubtfull.

more like your distribuitor has been re-timed.

Followup: I've replaced most of the ignition parts, plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, points. The replacement distributor cap was labeled with "1" in the wrong place, got that worked out. The coil I bought may be wrong kind - it has an internal resistor and the original is for external resistor. Didn't change that, but I still may do so. Gapped the points carefully, but did not check timing.

Now I have a different problem. While holding the starter switch the starter spins, the engine fires and seems to run smoothly. Throttle and choke controls function as expected. Release the key to the Run position, and the engine dies immediately.

I need to investigate wiring of the switch, although this has never been a problem before. However, in an attempt to attach a remote starter switch I removed and replaced the switch, so might have damaged a wire or the switch itself.

Any other ideas for me to follow up? Might this symptom be caused by the incorrect distributor cap? The fact that it is mis-labelled is troubling. However, I don't see how the engine could run smoothly and respond normally to throttle if the timing is far off.

 

[sailj32]

Soundguy - I looked more closely, and you are correct, the cap is not marked wrong. The problem is the new dust cap. It forces the distributor cap to be installed 180 degrees around from where it should be. The dust cap has an alignment mark saying to align with the oiler spout, and it fits tightly only when in that position. It will go on when rotated to a different position, but at that location it can be rotated in place by several degrees. In that "wrong" position, when placing the distributor cap on it, the distro cap can also be rotated several degrees, which must be wrong. In addition, in that location, the snaps that hold the distro cap on don't align, and the terminals for the plug wires are obviously not in the right places.

So, with this goofy dust cap in the right place, the distro cap must be placed so that the "1" mark is actually 180 degrees around, where cylinder #4 wire goes (firing order is 1-2-4-3).

As for the coil, the packaging clearly says 12-Volt Internal Resistor, and the product description indicates a 3.6 ohm internal resistance, and also not requiring an external resistor. it was sold as fitting a lot of tractors including the 841. Possibly it would work if I bypassed the external resistor, but maybe not? It's a little smaller in diameter, so the mounting clamp doesn't match the hole spacing of the engine block, but I figured that could be adapted easily enough.

So when you say "an internal resistive element would be folly" are you saying I definitely need to use a different coil and retain the external resistor?

 

[Soundguy]

i'm saying that i bet if you cut that new coil open you will not find 2 coils of wire and a resistor.. you will find 2 coils of wire.. and they will be of the correct length and gauge to be the correct resistance

if the primar is truly 3.6 ohms.. you do NOT need an external resistor.

as for the dizzy cap.

where does your oiler spout point.

it's possible someone removed the dizzy and installed it at a different clock facing than original.. but that is not a big issue as long as the wires are also re-oriented so that #1` is 1 etc.

 

[sailj32]

i'm saying that i bet if you cut that new coil open you will not find 2 coils of wire and a resistor.. you will find 2 coils of wire.. and they will be of the correct length and gauge to be the correct resistance

if the primar is truly 3.6 ohms.. you do NOT need an external resistor.

as for the dizzy cap.

where does your oiler spout point.

it's possible someone removed the dizzy and installed it at a different clock facing than original.. but that is not a big issue as long as the wires are also re-oriented so that #1` is 1 etc.

Ah, I see. Not an internal resistor, but an internal resistance. Makes sense. So I could use it if I bypassed the resistor - but I also know that when starting this engine the external resistor is bypassed to provide full current to the coil, and then when the starter switch is released, the resistor goes back into play. I could not do this if the resistance is internal to the coil.

My oil spout points outward and toward the front, at about 50 degrees from the fore-aft centerline of the tractor. In other words in a top view if the front-center of the tractor is 12:00, the oil spout points to about 2:00. If the dizzy had been rotated 180 degrees, the oil spout would be crammed between the engine block and coil.

The old dust cap I replaced was also marked for orientation to the oil spout, and the distributor cap was oriented correctly with that dust cap. The new one fits perfectly however, and the engine runs now, put a couple hours on it yesterday.

Thanks for the info and advice
Don

 

[Soundguy]

the original ignition system on a 541 would NOT have used a resitor / bypass start system.

it used a 6v battery and coil and NO resistor.

it wasn't untill the 65+ 3 cyl machines came out with 12v electrical systems that they went to using a resistor wire and 6v coil, resistor wire bypassed at start, and inline when running.

IMHO.. if you are on a 12v system.. get a 12v coil. no reason a offset should need a resistor bypass system.

also means the oem safety starter interlock is likely not working and has been defeated if you are using a bypass solenoid.

not reccomended.

 

[sailj32]

Soundguy - I assume your comment also applies to an 841? The rewire to 12V was done long before my ownership, and it does have a 12V coil, and also an external resistor. The only reason I'm considering changing the coil is that the spark is a little weak, although adequate. I bought a replacement coil, but have not put it on yet because until now I didn't understand the internal/external resistor situation.

You are correct, the floor starter switch is not in use - there is a key switch with ACC - OFF - RUN - START positions. This switch must do the resistor bypass in START position because my most recent problem (now solved) was that the engine would only run when in START. The problem was a wire pulled off the resistor, so in RUN there was no coil voltage.

I'm thinking I'll put in the new 12V coil, remove the resistor, and restore the foot starter, assuming it works. Then I can replace the key switch with a simple on-off toggle, and if I ever re-wire the headlights, another switch for them.

By the way, is there a better "Shop Manual" than the I&T manual FO-20? There's a good deal of mechanical information in it, but the sections on ignition and gas carburetor are very skimpy. Plenty of info on the LP carburetor and diesel fuel system however.

 

[Soundguy]

the f0-20 is more than sufficient for anything up to full overhaul, but yeah.. there is a shop manual .. it's more $$ but more extensive too.

the info I quoted would easilly cover all the 00/01 series from 55-64

the reason your spark is weak is because you say you have a resistor AND a 12v coil.

if you have a key/turn to start setup, your solenoid has been changed too. to go back to the trans top button, you will need the correct solenoid.. not a car/auto type like you have now.

you can test the thumb switch with a test lamp. clip to bat hot, probe to screw terminal.. press when in neutral. if lamp comes on, switch is good.