91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

[countryguy1225]

Morning everyone. My L2550 seems to be acting up following a recent Alternator and Regulator change. The anemic output just would not charge the battery enough over Winter's so I finally changed out the Alternator (Dyno some site note) and 12V Regulator. I have 13.8 to 14.1 now hitting the battery.

Intermittently, before before I swapped out the alt & reg, the starter would sometimes not engage. I would get a click-click of the main relay (usual sound even when it starts normally) but the starter would not engage. I would turn on/off for 5 times or so and it would eventually engage and start right up.

POST parts swap... it seemed fine for about a week ( we are using it daily for a fence post project) but now is taking 10-20 tries to get the starter to kick in and start the motor. I have tried to clean all plugs and reconnect everytihng I can reach. I've cleaned the entire ground strap and starter cables. The ignition key is getting pretty worn, and the key switch 'feel' is a bit loose. Just wondering where to dig next.
Is there a module or something I should just swap out next?

 

[rbargeron]

Click-click is very likely due to worn contacts in the starter solenoid, and unrelated to the recent work. Replacing the contacts is easy and the parts are readily available.

 

[countryguy1225]

oky doky.. pulled the print from the manual. I'll get the meter onto the Starter during a start condition when it won't start. Off the starter there are 3 lines.
1) The HOT cable from the battery to the starter.
2) The Solenoid wire (which comes from Key turn position going to the starter solenoid and passing thru a 'Safety Switch' (is that the clutch depress?)).
3) The other lug of the Starter is a wire line which travels back up to the to the Timer Rely pin 4. (one side of the relay contacts) The other side of the relay (is pin 1)
3a) tracing the timer relay from Pin 1 it goes thru a 15A fuse and loops thru the main harness and goes to the Key Stop solenoid.

I am not an expert on starter systems, but the Timer relay module is solid state and uses several transistors according to the print. a suspect at this point.
No sure what a Key Stop solenoid is.... but it's a coil on the print w/ one side to ground.

Diagnosis plan: Will put a meter on the key start line and key stop solenoid line off the starter and should see these go to 12V or ground to engage when key is turned.. if this works each time but does not turn the starter, I'll try a rebuilt starter. if one of the lines does not seem to be going high or low to allow starter current flow, I'll go into the starter relay or saftey switch devices.
The timer module is around $60.
The Safety Switch is about $30.
Starter... Can get non-OEM for $70-80 on the 'Bay'

 

[countryguy1225]

Thanks a bunch. Agreed -unrelated and it did happen on occasion just became progressively worse. Ordering the kit today! Kudos!

 

[rbargeron]

.......No sure what a Key Stop solenoid is.........

Stopping the engine requires cutting the fuel. Turning off the key activates linkage on the injection pump for a few seconds.

 

[Richardb]

On my L2250 the manual engine shutoff linkage at the dash leads to a valve that cuts off the fuel which can also be activated by an onboard solenoid. The wire to the solenoid is the Key Stop, at least on my '85 L2250.

You mention:
"oky doky.. pulled the print from the manual"
Do you have a service manual? If so, I just started a new thread looking for the valve adjustment specs and where to put the power steering fluid on my L2250. Let me know if have this information please.

 

[JWR]

At the start of all this I would have said EITHER the battery and starter cable ends are not making good connections OR the battery is bad.

Is there any noise at all during the 10-20 times you had to try it before the starter kicked in ? (click-click of the main relay or not?) I tend to go with the simplest things first. If there is no noise it would point to bad cable connections BUT you said you had cleaned the heck outta those cable ends. So ... try jumper cables and see if anything changes when a "good" battery is connected. Seems possible to me you've just got a bad battery (if you have the clicks but no starter engagement.)

Only if all that fails would I get into the more complicated stuff.

 

[countryguy1225]

UPDATE! : 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

Hi Everyone. Been a busy week. Sorry for the delay. UPDATE: Solinoid kit did not repair. Ordeerd the Timing module anyway. Due this week.... BUt this morning, in the 30's, and I went to hit the warmer... and Nada. I Jiggle the key in the ignitons and pop goes the relay and the lights - Then it warmed up... so an ah-ha went up. I try to start the tractor, (after 4 or 5 times turning back and forth) and it starts... I take it out and start jiggling the key in the ignition. And wella' IT simply shut off. I did the 3 times... Just by jiggling the key it is acting up. to restart, I noticed that if I hold the key down HARD in the socket and turn, I can get it to fire easier than the back forth key turns I had been doing.

...so... Mystery solved? A new ignition ??? $70 from Messicks. Or I can find a re-pop out there or take this one apart. Getting closer!

 

[countryguy1225]

Re: UPDATE! : 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

15minw later.... I left watrming up and came out to it not running. Wont do anything. no matter how hard I mess w/ the key and ign. socket. I'm pulling the cowling now.. and we'll see where we go.. bummer. but I got that last Cedar post in about 7:45 last night. Whew. Weird issue!!

15mins laster... cowling out. a lot of corrosion on plugs. meter in hand.. on the bench to test key turn and contact clean up!

1 hr later- Cleaned all contacts. stuck it back in. I jiggle everything and turn and press and wiggle and it'll turn over but won't stay running. OVernighted new ignition and key. Be here tomorrow.

Hi Everyone. Been a busy week. Sorry for the delay. UPDATE: Solinoid kit did not repair. Ordeerd the Timing module anyway. Due this week.... BUt this morning, in the 30's, and I went to hit the warmer... and Nada. I Jiggle the key in the ignitons and pop goes the relay and the lights - Then it warmed up... so an ah-ha went up. I try to start the tractor, (after 4 or 5 times turning back and forth) and it starts... I take it out and start jiggling the key in the ignition. And wella' IT simply shut off. I did the 3 times... Just by jiggling the key it is acting up. to restart, I noticed that if I hold the key down HARD in the socket and turn, I can get it to fire easier than the back forth key turns I had been doing.

...so... Mystery solved? A new ignition ??? $70 from Messicks. Or I can find a re-pop out there or take this one apart. Getting closer!

 

[lakeside]

Re: UPDATE! : 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

This may be way off base, but I had a similar problem with my G1800 this spring. I tried everything till I brought my starter into a repair shop. The found the starter was working properly but then the tech asked me if my starter relay was OK. Uh??

I bought an after market starter relay and solved the problem. The old relay just wasn't sending enough power for the solenoid to through out the pinion gear, even just a bit of interference between the pinion and the ring gear was enough.

Your starter relay may not be the problem but an after market relay is maybe $10 so if you can't nail down the problem, try a new relay.

 

[rbargeron]

Re: UPDATE! : 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

Sometimes the switches in the dash on older machines don't get a good enough ground. To test this, connect a jumper cable from the battery neg terminal directly to the cowl metal near the switch. If function improves, install a piece of copper house wire to strengthen cowl grounding.

 

[countryguy1225]

Re: UPDATE! : 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.

Thanks! New relay is on it's way also! Be here tomorrow I hope. But I still need to get that meter on it later. I can confirm something is going on w/ the ignition switch. New one w/ keys on the way. I can return it if not helpful.

The current problem has gone from intermittent into a full on failed. I can jiggle and wiggle the key to the "start" and it'll start, but when the key goes back to RUN , it fails instantly. I need to get off all this day job stuff and get out there and dig in. :smiley_aafz:

 

[countryguy1225]

That is a very good idea... Will try that in a bit also! Can only help eliminate and isolate.

Sometimes the switches in the dash on older machines don't get a good enough ground. To test this, connect a jumper cable from the battery neg terminal directly to the cowl metal near the switch. If function improves, install a piece of copper house wire to strengthen cowl grounding.

 

[flyerdan]

The contacts in the switch run position are not letting power go to the hold circuit on the fuel shutoff solenoid. The new switch should sort that, as if it was a wiring problem going to the solenoid it probably wouldn't start at all.

 

[countryguy1225]

The diagnosis!: 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently.



Pic of putting meter on RED G lug wire. and other lead on AC lug which is RUN and should be 0 ohms or short internally to pass the 12 V to keep ol' Orange running happy.


NOTE- A Day later.... New switch arrived 10am. Installed and she fired right up! ). Case closed.

Short Summary of what the write up below all means:

Basically, the TRactor was hard to start for over a month. I would turn on and off. on and off. It turns out that when you turn the key to START, it must short out 3 internal contacts to the center red 12V contact and pass the 12V to all those places. Missing even 1 contact means... no start. To test this you need a meter to test for your switch's internal shorting. You will connect to the RED wire terminal ( see pic above) and move the other lead around to the other 3 wires via the process below.

If your HEATER is bad, that switch position connects out the rear on a separate lug and a separate wire that goes over to the heater indicator. Just test on the open lug. There is no wire for the heater on that 4 wire plug.


Ok - Top Image is from the back of the manual. IT's a terminal matrix for the ignition unit. It shows the connections and what happens on each lug when you turn the key. I mean, RTMF sometimes works right. :hehe long day. I know it's blurry in the image but I can confirm I've got a bad Ignition switch. It's pulled out and I'm across the 4 contacts w/ my Meter in Ohms Mode. From the chart on the manual wiring page you can see (not in this image) which colors are used for each of the lines as (see full testing desc. below) BR BW R and RW color wires. These colors should match up w/ your harness 4 lug connector as:
BATT- Red wire and noted as G lug. (center lug folks).
G1 = solid line over to Heater indicator element. N/A for this test. uless your heater is not working.
G2 = Black White-
ST = Black Red.
AC = Red White.

Unless I'm missing something, here is the test I've done.
From the chart you can then ohm out the lines needed to short internally from BATT (G red wire lug) to the other harness lugs which travel to the places needing power.
Connect 1 meter lead to RED/BATT/G (lug in center).
To Start ohm test:
Connect other meter lead to ST/Black-Red lug. Turn Key to start. Should go to Zero ohms. Move lead from ST to G2/Black Red lug. Turn key to Start. Should go to zero ohms. Move lead to AC/Red-White lug. Turn key to start. should go to Zero ohm. These 3 zero ohm conditions are needed to start the tractor.
then back from spring loaded START to RUN...
To Run ohm test:
one lead on Red wire lug. (G) center lead. Other on AC lead (red white). should be zero ohms.


What my ignition switch does on the bench: I can get the START position to Ohm to zero on the 3 lugs but only by really twisting and pressing and playing.
- So that why it'll start when I yank and crank the key.
to Run: should be a short on BATT to AC. (red/white) wire. And no matter what in RUN selection, I cannot get it to zero out. So that's broken internally and why the tractor instantly stops when I go from START to RUN... (god Ihope)

to pull the ignition was only a few mins work. Don't hesitate if you think it's hard. It's not. Untwist the heater indicator top and press thru. There is enough slack to then pull off the cowling and disconnect the two harness connectors and your off the tractor w/ the assy. Taking the ignition switch out was just unscrewing the top cap and pushing it thought too.

So.. glad I put that on hot order overnight earlier b4 the overnight deadline.

I hope this can help someone in the future. It was no fun to get to diagnoses, but not too expensive in parts.

 

[newbury]

I'm impressed by your analysis and writeup on your diagnosis.

What do you have for a meter? I have not had to get into this detail yet and most of mine are HF freebies.

 

[countryguy1225]

Thanks! I'm a huge forum guy on many related to Electronics and CNC and Machinist sites... and i'm a college teacher. In my blood to make these worthy for everyone. So many have helped me on these sites. I just finished an edit/update to clean it up a bit. Any meter will do that has an OHMS or 'continuity' (sometimes called a 'ringer' for 'ringing' out lead connections). Mine is a fluke only cause I found it first. I have at least 5 of the HF's. 1 in every toolbox that goes in the truck or into the field. Good test & measurement gear is a HUGE plus when you're dead in a field.

I'm impressed by your analysis and writeup on your diagnosis.

What do you have for a meter? I have not had to get into this detail yet and most of mine are HF freebies.

 

[countryguy1225]

There are a lot of posts on this thread and a LOT of great comments and suggestions. If you have arrived at this post from a search engine and your Kubota will not start, there are some great ideas for you to check. If you think after a lot of trial and error that you need to check the swith itself, please see the thread posted as ;"The diagnosis!: 91 L2550. Starter won't engage. click/click. new Alt & Reg recently." In there I offer how to test the switch itself. All the best, CG