A dog died

[RAllen]

Last night, a nieghbor called us for help and the whole situation has bothered me. This posts has three questions I hope everyone will bear with me. I apoligize in advance for some of the graphic details. You may not want to read further.

I live in NW Montana and we have all the typical large mammals. We are in bear country. I used my tractor's FEL to bury the dog. Put him under 48" of earth.

One of their 3 dogs had been killed by some type of animal. The mixed breed dog weighed about 35-40 lbs. The skull had been partially crushed and one eye was extruded. The dog had a medium length coat and I could find no other wounds although I did not do a detailed inspection. There was no blood other than some from the one eye.

The nieghbor lady, her husband out of town, heard all three dogs raising a rackett around 3:00am to 5:00am. She was "afraid" to investigate and lost the dog.

These people insist on loading their garbage in an open trailer. This did attract a young bear earlier this spring. A yearling mountain lion has been seen by several nieghbors recently.

My first question to all. These folks have thier dogs staked out and chained 24/7. The children do play with the dogs some but, most of the time, they are just left there. The dogs have lived together for years but cannot even touch each other. I am sure the other two dogs, much much larger, would have protected the other if they had the change. I have always hated seeing dogs chained and not getting daily attention. I guess the dogs might get off the their chains once a month or so.

First question: Am I wrong in thinking these dogs are suffering from neglect. They are fed and watered. But thier "world" a radius of 30ft. is quite dirty. Each dog does have a shelter.

Second question: I personally think a bear may have been the killer. There was no attempt to prey on the dog. Mountain lion kills seem to have more blood around. I think the bear may have been after the dry dog food. Don't think it was Coyotes- dog was too big and, again, there would have been more blood.

Question Three: These folks are suffering severe financial hardships. I could call wildlife control folks. I am sure they would be ticketed for the garbage left outside- remember we live in bear country. But I think I want to take a different tact.
I think I am going down down there and offer to help cleaning up the mess and restructure the dogs living quarters. If the help is rejected, guess I'll call the authorities. I am worried about losing the bear if he gets in the habit of hanging around our homes and I am very worried about the nieghbors youngest child.

While she watched me dig the grave, holding a kitten [they will not spay the female cats], I kept thing the little girl age 4-5 wieghed about the same thing as the dog.

Rick

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by RAllen on 06/14/01 12:38 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

I agree about the bear. We had a couple of dogs near here attacked (one was a great dane), by Michigan's "non-existant" cougar. (Ask the DNR, they'll tell you, "No cougars here because we haven't seen one.") Those animals were pretty well chewed. My only experience with bears and dogs is when something (we think a bear) moved through here about 11:00 one night. All the dogs in the nighborhood started barking and carryin on. Then they got quiet. One by one. You could just about tell who's yard the critter was in. Nobody's dog got hurt though. I assume you think the bear basically swatted the dog to get it out of the way?

In answer to your questions.
1. It probably is cruelty, but there are a lot of people doing it, and in most locations it's illegal to have your dog outside and NOT tied up or contained. If they have food, water and shelter, you might not get a lot of sympathy from the authorities. So, try the woodchucks.

2. See Above

3. Might get them ticketed for the trash. That might help reducing the amount of bear damage, but it wouldn't help with the animals being tied up all the time. A nice kennel on the other hand (a big, fenced in yard). Maybe you could find some used fencing and try the old "Hey, guys, I've got all this fence laying here and I was wondering if ya'll would like it. Maybe I could even help ya install it. Keep the Coyotes out of the yard and away from the KIDS, ya know." Something like that might work. I'm afraid going down and offering help would just get rejected. Ticketing would start a war. Woodchucks holding signs and camping out would get laughed at, etc.

SHF

 

[Anonymous Poster]

When I was growing up I loved dogs. We had several, mostly beagles and some labs. Now I’m in my 40’s and I hate most dogs, but it's not really the dogs' fault. I don't know if things have really changed that much over the past 25 years, or just my perception has changed. It’s a very common scenario these days for a family to get a dog, tie it up outside or put it in a small pen and basically just ignore it. Sure, they play with it at first (when it’s a puppy), but after a while, it’s on its own. When the owners leave, these dogs will bark most of the time – very annoying. Fortunately, now I’m in an area that not too densely populated, so they don’t bother me. I feel sorry for the dogs – what a miserable way to live! As for the answer to your questions:

1 - In my opinion the dogs are suffering from neglect. But, there’s nothing you can do about it, it’s just part of today’s society.

2 - I don’t see your question here, except that maybe you’re looking for reassurance that you’re correct about the bear being the killer. If so, you’re probably right.

3 - Just because someone is struggling financially, that doesn’t give them the right to be slobs and ignore the law. If you offer help and they accept, then that will be great. But, if they decline and then you call the authorities, they will probably figure out it was you who called and they could retaliate. The last thing you want is a neighbor that doesn’t like you. The child is certainly a consideration. I would imagine that the bear attacks only occur late at night and early in the morning, when the child is not in the yard, so there’s probably not a real danger, but why take chances? My advice is to call the authorities and let them handle it, but ask them to keep their source anonymous and just say they are doing random inspections or something. Yeah, your neighbors might get fined but you’d still be doing them a favor, since that’s better then having to go to their kid’s funeral.

 

[RAllen]

Danny

You are probably right but I will offer to help anyway. I was in law enforcement for years and am not really afraid what they think or do. I am afraid of what I think of myself. I guess I entered this post to use all of you as a rural sounding board and perhaps impress on some reader the full impact of tying up and neglecting dogs. There is a dog sled racer near us. He keeps many dogs all tied up. BUT, they get excercised every day, and plenty of attention. These working dogs are not really pets but have a good life and seem very happy. All in all I would rather see dogs behind a fence with plenty of room to excercise.

In my youth, all the neighbors, in a suburban environment, let all the dogs roam free. Very few people were bitten, and everyone seemed to get along. I have other nieghbors that let thier dogs roam and there is never a problem. Thats because the dogs all well disciplined- they don't chase the deer etc.

The nieghbor thinks the culprit was a mountain lion and I am asking what anyone with more experience with these things think. I have seen a couple of cat kills but they were heavily preyed upon.

I would think a cat that would take time to kill the dog would at least disembowel it. But I could very wrong.

Rick

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Don't know that a cat would have the sheer strength to crush a dog's skull with what sounds like one swat. (Depends on size of dog and size of cat). Also, think a cat would be after the DOG and not dry dog food. So, there would be more damage done. A bear on the other hand weighs many times what a cat would and would have the strength to kill the dog like that. A bear also would be more likely interested in the dog food.

SHF

 

[RobS]

I love dogs and just can't understand why someone would own one just to keep it chained up out back. On the other hand, I put over 5,000 miles a year on my bicycle so I'd rather see the dogs chained up than chasing me down the road.

Not to stereotype, but it seems like the people who can least afford to care for a dog are the ones who often have several and keep them in the least suitable conditions. Why have a dog at all if you can't care for it properly? I'm probably preachin' to the choir here /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[RAllen]

Rob
You got me to thinking. In my youth, I had a paper route for several years ages 14-16.

As I mentioned, most all the neighborhood dogs could roam free- no leash law at the time. There was one or two dogs on my route that wanted to chase my bicycle, and later my moped, but that was all. Most dogs either had been trained or got it out of their system.

Today 98% of the dogs are restrained and one or two are loose and almost always make a nuisance out of themselves chasing cars, bikes etc.

Seems like the number of problem dogs remains the same. Perhaps its problem owners.

I would like to add I love dogs but do not have one because I cannot afford the 6 ft. high fence surrounding a 50ftx10ft kennel. Maybe next year.

Rick

 

[GlueGuy]

Rick,

I'll add my thoughts on this. We don't have dogs where we live; mainly because we don't have the time to give them the attention we think they need. My wife's sister also lives in a rural area, and works out of her home. She has a large German Shepherd. Her home is inside a fenced "compound", of about 2 +/- acres. Inside the compound she has a dog kennel roughly 10x15. 90% (more or less) of the time the dog runs free inside the compound. When she goes away for less than a few hours, she puts the dog inside the kennel. If she goes away for more than a few hours (day or two), she will usually leave the dog with a friend, or to a professional kennel. I think she is doing it the right way, and the dog seems very happy & friendly.

Now to respond to your questions.

(1) I don't agree with that sort of setup, I would prefer some sort of "protected space", both for the dogs, and also for unsuspected visitors. Even the best behaved dogs sometimes over-react. I don't know if this is "cruel", but it is not completely considerate.

(2) Hard to say. Cats have been known to kill just for practice. We've witnessed bobcats, & even house cats kill just for the heck of it (or so it would appear). My wife's opinion is that a well fed cat is just a better killer. I don't know if it makes much difference which it was, but it was most likely either a bear or big cat.

(3) If you can help, do. I think I would. A lot of times, people are so wrapped up in their troubles, that maybe they lose sight of things. Who knows. It's probably worth a shot. Setting up a decent kennel should not be a big deal.

The GlueGuy

 

[Bill_Ryan]

I live in rural New Hampshire. We have Black Bears, Moose, Bobcat, etc....

Black bears typically will leave a dog alone. When they come out of hibernation in early spring they may go for an easy goat or sheep. What type of bear do you have locally?

Also, sounds like the dog wasn't in a fight or else you'd see other signs. Sounds like he got too close to something large and was kicked (elk, moose, ????). Was the skull caved in?

Wrt to your neighbors. Our dogs are like family to us. That said, others treat dogs as they do livestock (serves a purpose and nothing more). I too hate to see animals tied up every day of their life....

You know your neighbors best. If you think they'd listen, speak to them first and offer to help. If they ignore you or worse, let them know you're willing to go the next step. If they still ignore you, go the next step and let the authorities know their situation and maybe just lay a little bit of scare into them first.

My 2 cents worth.

Hope all works out well for you and the dogs...

Bill

Bill Ryan
EnDeering Acres Farm
Deering, NH

 

[DrDan]

I agree... If there was a fight there would have been evidence of fur ripped off and other bite wounds. I suspect blunt trauma to the head by a ballbat! Are you sure the "poor disadvantaged" papa bear didn't have a few to many and went out back in the middle of the night and smack that barking dog? A smack from a bear is unlikely w/o claw marks and tracks. I bet it was a "people" animal.

Not only are these people financially disadvantaged, they have to be mentally crippled also if they leave open garbage in bear country. I'd call the authorities about the garbage. They need a kick in the butt, but it probably won't help. Stupid people generally stay stupid. Buy em out and get a D9 to bury the whole pile.

Dr Dan (Veterinarian)

 

[Bill_Ryan]

Dr. Dan may be right...

If they were barking all night, your neighbor may have come out to quiet them down with a louisville slugger (pretty sick).

Bill

Bill Ryan
EnDeering Acres Farm
Deering, NH

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Oops! Didn't think about "signs of a fight". Dr Dan just is right. A Baseball bat or 2x4 to the skull would do the job and not leave a lot of mess about. Or, maybe a hammer? Hate to think anybody would do something like that, but I've seen worse. Back when I thought I still wanted to be a landlord, I found and awful lot of frozen puppies and kittens when people moved out in the winter. (Usually in the crawl spaces so the place would smell real good in spring). The law wouldn't do anything about it because I couldn't prove that the animal hadn't "just died".

One question about the garbage though, would the authorities make them clean it up, or just enclose it so the bears can't get at it? Again, Dr Dan's idea of buying them out is right. It's the American way!

SHF

 

[RichZ]

Rick, I just started reading this thread this morning, but as soon as I read your description, I knew the killer was a human animal, just as Dan said. I'm a wildlife biologist by education, and as has been said earlier, a cat kill would have been very messy, and bears have no reason to kill a dog who is chained up.
I am an animal lover. My two dogs might as well be my kids. They live in the house, and have free run of the house. Even though I live in farm country, my dogs are only outside when they are on a leash. No matter how well trained, something could distract any dog enough for them to chase something in a road and get hit by a car. My house is maybe 1000 ft from the road, and the dogs could cover that distance in seconds and be hit.
I just contracted to fence a large area for them to play in outside. Even then, they will only be outside in their pen when someone is home, and then only for short times. My dogs weigh about 170 lbs each, so their pen will let them roughhouse all they want without wrecking the house.
I think you're right about neglect, and I agree with the earlier ideas of either trying to get a fenced area put in, or better yet trying to get the remaining dogs away from them and finding them the loving homes they deserve!
So many families in my area let their dogs run free, and they all eventually end up getting hit by cars or getting shot when they chase deer. Owning an animal is a responsibility, and it really burns me up when people don't take care of their animals.
In this case though, there is a real case of animal abuse, but it will be hard to prove who killed the dog, although I'm sure you have your suspisions. It's nice to see how concerned you, and everyone else in this thread, about animals!
Rich

 

[DrDan]

A bear could not cover it's tracks and they are fearful animals unless it is a grizley. Once again I vote for "Papa Bear" and the Lousville Slugger! Buy em out and get the dozer started.
Probably enough fertilizer in the ground to make a nice garden area.

Dr Dan

 

[RAllen]

First, thanks to all for the suggestions. As to the possibility of a human killer, I don't know. The father of the clan was out of town over 100 miles away. The childred would never do this. The mother, its a possibility. This family lives on 7 acres. Their nearest nieghbor would not do this and is a friend of theirs. The next nearest nieghbor is about a 1/2 mile away. Thier property is surrounded by national forest on two sides.
So I don't think this is a noise issue. The dogs will bark at deer and bear or people in the yard but are not chronic barkers. The mother stated she was awakened at 3am and the dogs barked like crazy until 5am.

There has been a young cat, puma, around for several weeks. Other nieghbors have seen it and it shows no fear. One lady had to wait 30 minutes before she dared exit her car and enter her home because the cat sat watching her on her driveway. No amount of horn honking or yelling had any effect. So the cat is on everyone's mind.

Additionally, a black bear has already raided the neighbors with the dead dog and the outside trash pile 2 weeks ago.
This bear ignored the dogs who were only 20 yards away from the trash.

I talked with fish & game concerning the attack. On the next sighting, they will respond with dogs and track the cat. They gave me permission to shoot it if on my property and a threat to life or property. The tracker did not think the killer of the dog was a puma. As others have said, too clean. This cat expert thought the bear might have done it but said an adult cat would have the strength to break the dogs skull although that is not a typical kill. He stated if the cat had done it would have taken the carcass. The chain and collar would not stop it. Indeed the collar almost slipped off the dog while I was burying it.

So its probably the bear or a sick human stranger. Most of our bears are black bears but grizs. are common just 15 miles away and there have been griz sightings around here from time to time.

Rick

 

[Wingnut]

Rick ... doesn't sound like a cat ... first off that's not the way they kill ... nor are they likely to attack another predator unless they're mighty hungry ... and certainly wouldn't leave the body there ... chained or not.
Doesn't really sound like a bear either ... if they "swiped" the door ... there'd be a lot of claw damage ... they don't retract their claws when they swing ...
I'd go along with the kick guess ...
Nature isn't the most pleasant girl ...
What should you do about the neighbors? well ... hard to say ... I've had similar problems and it just depends on how much you care about what they think of you ... you know that you won't remain anonymous ... being a former law enforcement officer.
I'd consider it highly unlikely something similar could happen to the girl ... unless they chain her out at night ...
The garbage is something else ... but darned hard to tackle ... yeah, they might let you clean it up ... but would start filling the trailer again immediately ... if they cared, it wouldn't be like that.
And, IMHO, the financial situation has nothiung to do with it ... I grew up dirt poor ... but we knew where the garbage was supposed to go and didn't think that abandoned cars and assorted "art" were appropriate yard decorations.


too bad that common sense ain't

 

[RAllen]

Thought I would post a follow up. Some of you might be interested. The father was out of town at the time of the attack and pronounced it to be a cat attack over the phone.

Seems he took exception to my opinion it was not a cat but a bear. I even passed along the idea [expressed on this site] it may have been a human.

This guy dug up the dog, carried it around in his car for two days, contacted the mountain lion control officer[ same guy I talked with] and took the dog to his office. They did find bite marks on the head, nothing anywhere else. He got the control officer to admit it could be a cat.

He then brings the dog to my house and and invites me to look at the bite marks. I told him: "I have seen enough dead bodies in my life and that if you think it was a cat, that is good enough for me and, by the way, clean up your trash or I am going to call fish and wildlife."

I bought up the issue of his dogs. He has moved one of the surviving two to the back yard, keeping the other survivor in the front. Apparently the dogs are an "early warning system" for his kids playing in the yard and nothing else.

See what happens when you try to help folks.

Rick

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by RAllen on 06/19/01 01:32 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Bite marks are hard to argue with. Otherwise I'd suggest that while Poppa Bear was away, the Big Bad Wolf came to visit Goldilocks, smacking the poor pooch to shut him up. Poppa Bear, of course, might not want to believe such a thing and might want the Forest Feds to help validate his fantasy.

Either way, are they cleaning up?

SHF