A Question for Contractors

[CurlyDave]

In Oregon the law requires a contractor to give a one year warranty on a new house. Our house was finished in November of 2007.

We have a deck on the second floor, which I had finished in tile. Special, outdoor porcelain tile. Before the tile contractor installed it, I told him that this was going to be the harshest environment he had ever seen, because there is no roof over the deck and the tile is exposed to the winter sky at night and gets very cold, and then exposed to the afternoon sun in summer and gets very hot.

Well, by June of 2008 about 1/3 of the tiles had loosened and come up, as well as all of the grout had failed.

The contractor came out with his adult son, and spent a week and a day resetting all of the tile & grout last fall. Didn't charge me anything. Before he started fixing it, I told him again how hard this installation was.

I noticed a week or so ago, the tile is failing again, not as bad as before, but
~10% of the tiles are loose this time.

He is coming out tomorrow and I know he will work with me on fixing the job. The real question is not even should I offer to pay him, but how much should I pay him? Times are tough now, and I know he is low on work. OTOH, I warned him how hard this installation was -- twice.

I am sort of thinking I should offer to cover all his materials and something more for his time. I don't think I should have to pay full price, since he never did it right to start with, but if I starve him out of business that isn't a good solution either.

What percent of his usual rate do you guys think is fair?

 

[WarrenF]

Dave:

Here is what comes to mind when reading your post. First of all, is it really possible to have your deck tiled and have no expectation of it failing? Sometimes, and I am not suggesting you did this, the homeowner wants something so badly they will not listen to any warnings or suggestions of what will or will not work.

Another area to explore, does the material manufacturer have a warranty on their product. You might offer to go to bat for the contractor and find out why the grouting keeps failing. I am also wondering as well, if you can get a real honest answer....did/does the deck have the proper base to it. I keep thinking perhaps the base the tile is laid on, might have to much flex in it and that may be a cause of the failure. Your tile contractor might not be telling you that, because he wants more work from the original contractor.....you know to keep eating.

I guess what I am saying is....I don't know what you should offer to pay....I just know that in your situation you can draw more flies with honey. It is my opinion you really need to get "behind" the obvious and get real answers.

 

[tommu56]

Dave it soundsl ike the tile is ok more like the morterbed or the grout is the issue.
I'v never put tile in but watched it done and they allways put a pan in to catch leaks in a shower so if water gets in through in an shower it I can't see why it wouldent get through in an porch and if it freezes something has to give.

tom

 

[EddieWalker]

Hi Dave,

I personally would refuse any compensation on warranty that I did if I did it the way I thought it should be done. I've had a few surprises and had to go back to fix things, and I'm sure it will happen again. I'm more embarrassed that it didn't work the first time, then I am concerned about getting paid for my time.

With regards to your situation, I'm curious about what the tile is attached to? Tile is known to hold up to outdoor applications for hundreds of years. It handles constant moisture in bathrooms, and fountains all over the world. Thinset mortar is pretty good stuff and not affected by cold, heat or moisture.

Movement is the only reason that it would fail that I'm aware of. How much movement is there and why is there movement? Homes move around quite a bit, and a deck on a second level floor is going to be all over the place.

I've seen people install Hardi backerboard with nails. For your application, I'm thinking screws would be mandatory. I'd also wonder about what's under the Hardi backerboard? Is it 3/4 T&G plywood? And what's under the plywood? What are the spacings of the floor joists?

If all of that was done, then I find it very hard to understand why the tile is coming off. I think that a step was skipped along the way, or the possibility for movement wasn't addressed to the degree it needs to be.

In your situation, with very little information, I don't know if it's the tile installers fault or not. He probably doesn't have a clue about framing, decking or racking of a building. Like most subs, he knows his trade, but has very little knowledge of the rest of the building. If he's doing everything right, but the second level flooring isn't properly built, then I don't think he's obligated to do anything, and in fact, shouldn't have done it for free the last time. Warranty work only applies to what he did, if he did it wrong. Of course, finding the cause of the problem is always the most difficult part of any repair. The next most difficult part is to get the person responsible to fix it!!!! LOL

Eddie

 

[Bedlam]

Eddie, from this and other posts ,I can tell you you appear to be a very honest and conscientious person. Maybe I see this because of the contractor that I have worked for a few years ago. I simply couldn't take the dis-honesty or shoddy workmanship as well as the outright fraud and thefts for the box stores.So I left.cut out my meal ticket but sleep well at night.
People with your attitude would sure be welcome. round my parts.
Just wanted to slip this in not to de rail the thread. As its an interesting one for me. And Curly seems like he isn't one of those customers that is a PITA..

 

[schmism]

Id go for the pizza and (after the job is over) beer payment thing.

keeps the workers happy, you can say you never "paied" for warrentee work persay but everyone comes out happy. The workers cause they got a little extra, you because you didnt feel like your ripping off the guy.

 

[orezok]

Dave - as a licensed contractor for 30 years and currently managing $150M of work for my school district, I can tell you that tiles installed over a wood structure will usually have a less than desirable outcome. Unless the deck is heavily framed and has at least 1 1/2" of light weight concrete on it, the tile will continue to fail.

I give your contractor credit for standing behind HIS work, but I believe the culprit is the sub-structure.

I think if he repairs it again you are only delaying the inevitable.

 

[CurlyDave]

OK, more information coming.

The house sits square to the points of the compass. The deck wraps around the house. On the north side it is 100' long and 10 feet wide. On the East it is 10' wide by 20' long, and on the West it is 10' wide by 40' long. The side by the house is held up by the structure of the house, the outboard side is held up by posts. The headers are Glulam beams. From memory they are 14" x 5 1/4" on the north and east, where the post spacing is 20', and 18" x 5 1/4" on the west where there is a 30' span from post to post to allow unobstructed access to the garage.

Spanning from house to header is mostly 12" BCIs, although there were some 2" x 12" boards at corners. There is an OSB deck over the joists.

I told the contractor that the deck had to be waterproof and fireproof. Waterproof so it would act as a roof for the patio underneath, and fireproof because I wanted to put a grill on it, and I didn't want the deck to burn if I dropped a piece of flaming chicken on it. Tile was the contractor's idea, although I readily agreed, and couldn't think of much else that would be both waterproof and fireproof.

The tile contractor floated about 1" of mortar over the OSB, painted it with with 3 coats of something called "Redguard" to waterproof it and then laid more mortar and tiles on it.

The tile was 18" squares of a porcelain material with an ADA-approved surface finish for traction under wet conditions. At the time, ADA-approved tile was not very common, and choices were limited. The tile itself is not failing, it is the grout and the mortar holding the tile down.

The tile subcontractor saw the structure before he bid. I told him that it would be the hardest installation he had ever done, because there is no roof over the tile deck and it is subject to extreme temperature variation.

I realize the wooden sub-structure is not ideal, but the contractor saw it with his own eyes before he bid the job, and he thought he could do it.

The contractor selected the float, grout and mortar materials, and agreed that the tile we selected was high enough quality. The porcelain tile is actually at the very high end of the market.

If he were a big business, I would insist that the contractor keep replacing the grout and mortar until he got it right, but he is independent, and construction has been dead for the past 18 months. If I force him out of business, no one benefits.

 

[orezok]

OK, more information coming.

The house sits square to the points of the compass. The deck wraps around the house. On the north side it is 100' long and 10 feet wide. On the East it is 10' wide by 20' long, and on the West it is 10' wide by 40' long. The side by the house is held up by the structure of the house, the outboard side is held up by posts. The headers are Glulam beams. From memory they are 14" x 5 1/4" on the north and east, where the post spacing is 20', and 18" x 5 1/4" on the west where there is a 30' span from post to post to allow unobstructed access to the garage.

Spanning from house to header is mostly 12" BCIs, although there were some 2" x 12" boards at corners. There is an OSB deck over the joists.

I told the contractor that the deck had to be waterproof and fireproof. Waterproof so it would act as a roof for the patio underneath, and fireproof because I wanted to put a grill on it, and I didn't want the deck to burn if I dropped a piece of flaming chicken on it. Tile was the contractor's idea, although I readily agreed, and couldn't think of much else that would be both waterproof and fireproof.

The tile contractor floated about 1" of mortar over the OSB, painted it with with 3 coats of something called "Redguard" to waterproof it and then laid more mortar and tiles on it.

The tile was 18" squares of a porcelain material with an ADA-approved surface finish for traction under wet conditions. At the time, ADA-approved tile was not very common, and choices were limited. The tile itself is not failing, it is the grout and the mortar holding the tile down.

The tile subcontractor saw the structure before he bid. I told him that it would be the hardest installation he had ever done, because there is no roof over the tile deck and it is subject to extreme temperature variation.

I realize the wooden sub-structure is not ideal, but the contractor saw it with his own eyes before he bid the job, and he thought he could do it.

The contractor selected the float, grout and mortar materials, and agreed that the tile we selected was high enough quality. The porcelain tile is actually at the very high end of the market.

If he were a big business, I would insist that the contractor keep replacing the grout and mortar until he got it right, but he is independent, and construction has been dead for the past 18 months. If I force him out of business, no one benefits.

It sounds like they did about a substantial framing job as possible. If I had to guess, I would say that the house side of the deck is restrained by the house structure (shear walls and climate controlled) but the outside edge is free to float and expand/contract with changes in temperature. Did the contractor install any expansion joints or is this one continuous deck?

 

[EddieWalker]

Dave,

As usual with you, it sounds over built and well thought out. You are into an area that's over my head and experience. Something is wrong, and I think it's too much movement. Since the tile guy saw this beforehand and took steps to eliminate it, I agree that it's on his dime to fix it. Unfortunately, allot of the times, this is when they stop answering their phones and disappear on you. Hope he sticks around and figures it out.

I know that if anybody comes to me with a job like this, I'm going to have to think very carefully and hard about how to make sure it's right. The variables in it are pretty severe.

Good luck,
Eddie

PS. Thanks Bedlam. My philosophy is pretty simple. I don't do anything that I'm going to have to lie about or be ashamed of. If I do it, then I'm able to talk about it. It doesn't matter if it's work or personal. I made enough mistakes in my past to know what it's like to be ashamed of something, so I just don't do things like that anymore. Not drinking has really helped in this too!!! LOL