art
Super Member
Not nessecarily but most likely. We joke about one our customers who came in with his theory, IH tractors are rated against Clydesdales and Deere use Shetland ponies!
Advice for a complete novice: gas v. diesel
- Thread starter mureiko
- Start date
- Views: 2798
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 51,575
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
I see you don't own or never tried to research an older tractor. Many of the points you make are misconceptions in general.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You don't know the history and if you get lucky and find a really well maintained one, you are still going to be working on it. )</font>
You actually contradicted yourself there... by default.. what one would consider to be a 'good' one.. wouldn't one that you would have to work on immediatly.. if it needed immediate work.. it would be a fixer-upper.. though.. not necescarilly a bad deal.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Tractors have evolved into better tractors over time. A company builds a tractor, it has a problem, they build a better tractor. New tractors a better than old tractors )</font>
Generally true... though Massey fergusion just caught on to this... not that they have a bad machine.. it is just that their models up untill recently were more or less just updates of 30 year old technology.. yet priced well where a farmer needing a tractor without bells and whistles could afford to buy, and still get a good solid tractor.
And as with anything.. newer doesn not always mean better... there are many instances of newer designs failing in the light of older more reliable setups.. ( just ask Coca-cola... ).
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If you don't know allot about working on tractors, you will if you buy a used one. Guranteed! You learn more every time it breaks down. )</font>
Pretty much a neutral point.. as it will apply to your brand spanking new tractor as well. You would be surprised what is NOT covered under a new tractor warranty.. so anyone who owns a tractor of any age must be prepaired to turn a wrench.. or pay another to turn the wrench.. part and parcel of ownership of this sort of equipment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With that much land to maintain, fixing and maintaing an old tractor all the time might not be the way to go )</font>
Again.. size the tractor to your needs... and as for the repairs.. that goes back to the first paragraph.. if you get a good one.. there won't be anything more than 'in line of work' repairs'. If you check the ford sub.. there is a fellow with a brand spanking new TC24d.. that has had a huge list of problems.. wheels falling off.. driveshaft problems.. leaking oil pan.. etc... New does not guarantee perfection. And there is no reason why say.. a 1969 ford 8000 in good condition wouldn't be suitable for a 50 acer farm.... if it fits the farmers needs..
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With that much land to maintain, fixing and maintaing an old tractor all the time might not be the way to go)</font>
Sure.. in the long run.. a new one may be better than buying a beater and bandaiding it all the time... the point is.. if you get used.. don't buy a 'project' tractor. If there are no good used available.. well then.. that answers the question of the new vs used.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Look at the financing options available and you will be suprised what is available.
)</font>
True, and there are a multitude of new off-brand machines on the market now.. for instance the jinma tractors.. probably the cheapest dollar per hp you can buy... and have some kind of warranty.. etc.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As far as comparing diesel to gas. Diesel will provide more power to the wheels and PTO, it will run stronger at lower rpm's, maintenence is less and fuel economy is greater. In Texas you can get diesel tax free. You can buy farm diesel at some stations tax free, or you buy it at a station for normal price, save the receipts and fill out some forms to get the tax refunded.
)</font>
I see you are not into apples to apples comparison.. Such a blanket statement that deisel has more hp to the pto/wheels than gas is akin to saying a ton of lead weighs more than a ton of feathers.
Compair apples to apples... as a gas tractor rated at 33ptohp should perform similar pto tasks as a deisel tractor rated at 33ptohp.. taking into account similar tractor weights, hitches.. etc.. For instance... I wouldn't run a thresher of my 'new' NH diesel 4 cyl tractor with 33 hp.. because its weight is about 3200lbs.. however my old JD 'B' 2 cyl, gas is 1000 pounds plus heavier, and 28 pto hp... and they hayed for decades.. see the point? You have to match the whole tractor to the job..
As for fuel.. yep.. diesel is just uually plain cheaper than gas.. no argument there. And yes.. a gas tractor will have a bit higher upkeep as you have to buy plug cap, points and wires for it... though probably not an air filter.. just oil filter. Interesting enough, my NH takes a 60 dollar air filter, and about 55 dollars worth of fuel, hydraulic and oil filters.. that.. say 115 per year not counting the oil. My comparible gas job.. a 54 ford NAA.. ( same hp ), takes one oil filter.. say.. 6 bucks at napa ( napa 1515 oil filter ).. sparkplug wires, 20 bucks, cap, rotor points and plugs, 24 bucks... no air filter element.. just an oil bath.. lets see that comes to..50 bucks...neat huh...... and uh.. in case you eaver need to know.. a carb is cheaper to rebuild/replace than a injection pump.. for instance the carb kit/reman is 25/139$... you can even touch a repair/reman injector pump for that money..
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The difference in pricing parts depends on how old the gas one is you buy. Old tractors with gas engines don't have parts at the local parts store and most dealers don't carry them. What does a used 50 year old gas starter go for? Can you find one for the model you buy? Guys with older tractors LIKE to work on them and find those hard to find parts. Do you?
)</font>
Wow.. big claims.. though not completely acurate... "Old tractors with gas engines don't have parts at the local parts store and most dealers don't carry them".. I guess you've never been to a farm stor like.. say.. tractor supply. Their tractor parts section is more or less ONLY for older gas jobs. You can get sheet metal parts, rims, radiators, filters, ignition parts, water pumps, carbs.. etc.. right on the shelf...
"dealers don't carry them".. I can go to my local New holland dealership and get filters and many major engine and hyd components for my 50's era fords. Same with my local JD dealer.. parts in stock, etcand, you can still get just about any owners manual for any jd product right from JD.. . A deutz-allis dealer will also carry many A/C parts from the mid 30's tractors as well... not to shabby...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( dealers don't carry them )</font>
There's the main point... find a model/make that has good local parts/service availability.. sure.. you go get an overseas model lamborghini tractor.. and yeah.. no one will work on it.. and you will have to mail order your butt off to get parts at premium prices...
I'm not against new tractors.. and some times you just have to have one... No all older tractors are suited for all purposes ( nor are all newer ones either ). Just match the tractor to the job..
But you have to be fair and present an unbiased comparison too..
My best deal on a tractor was a 54 NAA that looked beat... It started and ran as was purchased. The only thing I added was an oil pressure gauge, for piece of mind... that was 8 bucks... so for 2008.00 bucks, I got a gas job tractor that will do 95% of the work of my 10k+ diesel will do... the difference being that my diesel is 4wd and pulls a tad better discing.. though the old gas job has draft controll on the 3pt which makes discing easier...... go try to find a compact tractor with draft control these days... now that will be a search...
( For my own enjoyment I did sink more money and time into the body work, and replacement parts for cosmetic reasons.. )
Soundguy
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You don't know the history and if you get lucky and find a really well maintained one, you are still going to be working on it. )</font>
You actually contradicted yourself there... by default.. what one would consider to be a 'good' one.. wouldn't one that you would have to work on immediatly.. if it needed immediate work.. it would be a fixer-upper.. though.. not necescarilly a bad deal.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Tractors have evolved into better tractors over time. A company builds a tractor, it has a problem, they build a better tractor. New tractors a better than old tractors )</font>
Generally true... though Massey fergusion just caught on to this... not that they have a bad machine.. it is just that their models up untill recently were more or less just updates of 30 year old technology.. yet priced well where a farmer needing a tractor without bells and whistles could afford to buy, and still get a good solid tractor.
And as with anything.. newer doesn not always mean better... there are many instances of newer designs failing in the light of older more reliable setups.. ( just ask Coca-cola... ).
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If you don't know allot about working on tractors, you will if you buy a used one. Guranteed! You learn more every time it breaks down. )</font>
Pretty much a neutral point.. as it will apply to your brand spanking new tractor as well. You would be surprised what is NOT covered under a new tractor warranty.. so anyone who owns a tractor of any age must be prepaired to turn a wrench.. or pay another to turn the wrench.. part and parcel of ownership of this sort of equipment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With that much land to maintain, fixing and maintaing an old tractor all the time might not be the way to go )</font>
Again.. size the tractor to your needs... and as for the repairs.. that goes back to the first paragraph.. if you get a good one.. there won't be anything more than 'in line of work' repairs'. If you check the ford sub.. there is a fellow with a brand spanking new TC24d.. that has had a huge list of problems.. wheels falling off.. driveshaft problems.. leaking oil pan.. etc... New does not guarantee perfection. And there is no reason why say.. a 1969 ford 8000 in good condition wouldn't be suitable for a 50 acer farm.... if it fits the farmers needs..
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With that much land to maintain, fixing and maintaing an old tractor all the time might not be the way to go)</font>
Sure.. in the long run.. a new one may be better than buying a beater and bandaiding it all the time... the point is.. if you get used.. don't buy a 'project' tractor. If there are no good used available.. well then.. that answers the question of the new vs used.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Look at the financing options available and you will be suprised what is available.
)</font>
True, and there are a multitude of new off-brand machines on the market now.. for instance the jinma tractors.. probably the cheapest dollar per hp you can buy... and have some kind of warranty.. etc.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As far as comparing diesel to gas. Diesel will provide more power to the wheels and PTO, it will run stronger at lower rpm's, maintenence is less and fuel economy is greater. In Texas you can get diesel tax free. You can buy farm diesel at some stations tax free, or you buy it at a station for normal price, save the receipts and fill out some forms to get the tax refunded.
)</font>
I see you are not into apples to apples comparison.. Such a blanket statement that deisel has more hp to the pto/wheels than gas is akin to saying a ton of lead weighs more than a ton of feathers.
Compair apples to apples... as a gas tractor rated at 33ptohp should perform similar pto tasks as a deisel tractor rated at 33ptohp.. taking into account similar tractor weights, hitches.. etc.. For instance... I wouldn't run a thresher of my 'new' NH diesel 4 cyl tractor with 33 hp.. because its weight is about 3200lbs.. however my old JD 'B' 2 cyl, gas is 1000 pounds plus heavier, and 28 pto hp... and they hayed for decades.. see the point? You have to match the whole tractor to the job..
As for fuel.. yep.. diesel is just uually plain cheaper than gas.. no argument there. And yes.. a gas tractor will have a bit higher upkeep as you have to buy plug cap, points and wires for it... though probably not an air filter.. just oil filter. Interesting enough, my NH takes a 60 dollar air filter, and about 55 dollars worth of fuel, hydraulic and oil filters.. that.. say 115 per year not counting the oil. My comparible gas job.. a 54 ford NAA.. ( same hp ), takes one oil filter.. say.. 6 bucks at napa ( napa 1515 oil filter ).. sparkplug wires, 20 bucks, cap, rotor points and plugs, 24 bucks... no air filter element.. just an oil bath.. lets see that comes to..50 bucks...neat huh...... and uh.. in case you eaver need to know.. a carb is cheaper to rebuild/replace than a injection pump.. for instance the carb kit/reman is 25/139$... you can even touch a repair/reman injector pump for that money..
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The difference in pricing parts depends on how old the gas one is you buy. Old tractors with gas engines don't have parts at the local parts store and most dealers don't carry them. What does a used 50 year old gas starter go for? Can you find one for the model you buy? Guys with older tractors LIKE to work on them and find those hard to find parts. Do you?
)</font>
Wow.. big claims.. though not completely acurate... "Old tractors with gas engines don't have parts at the local parts store and most dealers don't carry them".. I guess you've never been to a farm stor like.. say.. tractor supply. Their tractor parts section is more or less ONLY for older gas jobs. You can get sheet metal parts, rims, radiators, filters, ignition parts, water pumps, carbs.. etc.. right on the shelf...
"dealers don't carry them".. I can go to my local New holland dealership and get filters and many major engine and hyd components for my 50's era fords. Same with my local JD dealer.. parts in stock, etcand, you can still get just about any owners manual for any jd product right from JD.. . A deutz-allis dealer will also carry many A/C parts from the mid 30's tractors as well... not to shabby...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( dealers don't carry them )</font>
There's the main point... find a model/make that has good local parts/service availability.. sure.. you go get an overseas model lamborghini tractor.. and yeah.. no one will work on it.. and you will have to mail order your butt off to get parts at premium prices...
I'm not against new tractors.. and some times you just have to have one... No all older tractors are suited for all purposes ( nor are all newer ones either ). Just match the tractor to the job..
But you have to be fair and present an unbiased comparison too..
My best deal on a tractor was a 54 NAA that looked beat... It started and ran as was purchased. The only thing I added was an oil pressure gauge, for piece of mind... that was 8 bucks... so for 2008.00 bucks, I got a gas job tractor that will do 95% of the work of my 10k+ diesel will do... the difference being that my diesel is 4wd and pulls a tad better discing.. though the old gas job has draft controll on the 3pt which makes discing easier...... go try to find a compact tractor with draft control these days... now that will be a search...
( For my own enjoyment I did sink more money and time into the body work, and replacement parts for cosmetic reasons.. )
Soundguy
