Amsoil vs. Delvac 1

[gsxr1100]

Richard. I know you are not bashing the oils. I am just trying to make a point of using synthetics oil in stored tractors while answering some statements you made. All I was saying is that synthetics are better but to get the benefit and design functionality of the oil you are to go a bit longer. I never said that your studies were BS. I said that the studies you read never provided the “real” or raw data, no standards to which the test were performed etc.


Just because Ford wrote it means nothing. I see the people that write our manuals or specifications at my place of employment (major Aerospace Company, top 3) and let me tell you they are not the brightest star in the sky. It comes down to legal business, nothing to even due with the end product. The higher management people are worried about not making their %. If they don’t make it (%) they don’t get their bonus. Usually about a million dollars!!!!!

To close I take my limited time very seriously. If there is a better way, simpler, and cleaner way I will do it. I am the type of person that does not like to get my hands dirty if possible. Don’t get me wrong I like to take thing apart when it is needed. That is why I have a BSME degree. Why take 5 hours of bringing out the tools, sweating, taking apart something, not proper tools etc. ; when I can go to work, sit in an air conditioned building and do some work or surf the net all day. In many cases, it is sometimes more cost affective to go to work and pay someone to do the work. Less stress, worry, loss of time, and you can point the finger at the dealer if it goes wrong. Unless there is beer involved, then it’s a different story. /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

If you relax by doing this than you are on the right track. I however, prefer not to (unless I have too)

Case closed…. Elvis is leaving the building


Thanks
Mike
Like I told my last ex-wife, I only drive as fast as I can see...and besides, It's all in the reflexes
-Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I am aware of one independant oil study. It was done by Consumer Reports with New York City taxi cabs. They used a fleet of them and put different kinds of oil in the different cabs. The engines were disassembled and measured/inspected at the start of the test and then again after 100,000 miles of stop and go driving. The conlcusion was that there was no significant difference in the wear between any of the oils. Most the oil brands tested were conventional, but synthetic was also tested, however it did not do any better than the conventional oils.

I find it interesting that whenever one of these oil discussions starts that the proponents of synthetic oil become very agressive. Usually the people that use conventional oil just say they are not convinced that the synthetics are cost effective. Most even say or imply that the synthetic may be a better oil, but they don't use it because of the cost. When this happens the synthetic side acts like their mother was just insulted and gets bent out of shape. Both in this discussion and in other, discussions people supporting synthetics have expressed a willingness or desire to take manufactures to court in support of their oil. I can think of plenty of other things I would rather do with my time.

I also design and develop gas turbine engines for one of the top 3 manufactures. (there are only 3 making large commercial engines) The conditions that jet engine oil is used under are very different than those in a compact tractor. I do not believe that synthetic is cost effective for most compact tractor owners. Conventional oil will give engine life of 5000 hours or more in a compact diesel engine. It will be a rare tractor owner that will own the tractor long enough to see the 5000 hours.

Andy

 

[gsxr1100]

<font color=blue> THIS IS A HOT TOPIC AND I MEAN HOT!!!! </font color=blue>

Andy – This, I thought was closed but here we go. I gotta love this topic /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif. Consumer Report is meaningless. Again, give me raw data and not some doctored up write-up the same person wrote!

I am not aggressive in this topic, where did that come from? Do you think I am? I am just typing on a computer drinking a coffee and listening to tunes. I am a very down-to-earth person. You seem to be stereotyping some people here. I think someone needs some diversity training. I am not bent out of shape. Don’t really care. It is just when some people like to think they know all, just because they read a few things. Hell, I don’t know it all. I just know what I have learned at work (through the years), talking with other co-workers & vendors in many fields, and from my continuing classes toward my Masters in Mech. Engineering. I don’t know that much but I seem to know where to look or the proper people (that are a lot higher up than me) to ask about this topic.

I have to agree with you 100% on the time issue; however, if I did have a problem with a manufacture I just call my brother and he hands all the legal issues. I am an engineer not a lawyer. Very easy that way. No muss no fuss.

I stated military jets, not commercial side. And yes, you are correct in only three making large commercial engines. That’s easy. GE, P&W, RR. There might be some little ones over seas but that is not my expertise.

To close, the topic that I jumped in on was that if it was okay to use synthetics for machines that do not get used to often, that’s it. Then it went in many others directions. Also I really don’t care (being nice here) what anyone believes. I want to see the numbers, specifications, standards (DOD, Mil, ASTM etc) and/or test results that prove one is better than the other. I used regular oil and it performed very poorly. I also read as much as I could into what tests it passed and did not. That’s is why I chose synthetics, period. I have no idea on where you came up with 5,000 magical hours number. What or in what spec. is this in? Granted it might be overkill with synthetics but the benefits that I have seen prove there is a benefit. Numbers don't lie.

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I am off my wooden soapbox. Ha guys, I don’t take this personal. Life is far too short to get worked up! This is fun and some people (including myself might learn something).
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Thanks
Mike
Like I told my last ex-wife, I only drive as fast as I can see...and besides, It's all in the reflexes
-Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

 

[Anonymous Poster]

burnickas, Sorry did not mean to offend you. I was replying to cowboydoc who even said "Geez you guys come on I never bashed synthetic oil!". I have been following and participating in the synthetic vs conventional oil debate in tractors for years and it seems that the passions always increase rapidly from the synthetic side. Go back and read the thread from the beginning and see if you agree. Search the archives here and on the other tractor message boards for this debate and I think you will find the same thing. I am not sterotyping just making what I thought was an interesting observation about this subject. You are not the first to have expressed a desire to take an engine maker to court over synthetic oil.

I like to think I have an open mind about people as well as products. I have used both types of oil in my own vehicles in the past and have only experienced oil breakdown under normal operating conditions with synthetic. That has still not biased me, since I am currently using both types of oil in my engines.

The Consumer Reports test was the only one I know of that was independent. I brought it up in response to cowboydoc commenting on the oil testing being commissioned by one side or the other. His assessment that those doing the testing may have a stake in the outcome makes a very good point. There is no reason that I know of that the Consumer Reports test should not be believed.

Military jet engine oil as well as commercial engine oil are both used under conditions that are very different than those in a compact tractor. Advantages in one engine may or may not apply to a different engine type.

The 5000 hour number is not magical or in any spec. It is a generally accepted number of hours one can expect out of a compact diesel engine before rebuild. This is much like 100,000 miles can be expected out of an automobile engine. It is likely that either type of engine may last longer than that. Not many of us will own our tractors long enough to wear out the engine.

Andy

 

[john4nh]

Hey Fellas I am a little confused???

I drive a 3/4ton gm my wife a toyato tacoma v-6.. i can change the oil in both trucks using the same brand and 3000 miles later my oil is black and hers looks brand new.. Now Ive been told that it is bacause the toy engine is much tighter then the loose 350.. Mind you both these trucks are under 50,000 miles.. Does this make sense to any one?? I guess what iam getting at is the black oil may be caused by something other then the brand, type of oil etc... that we are you using. We have used castrol, wife likes and penz.. I like.. Just curious if this comes in to play in any of the discussions? by the wayin my tractors I use delo and have now switched to rotella since I work for them...I change oil in the fall before winter storage and in the summer, just works for me..

 

[gsxr1100]

That (tolerances) will have some influence on the oil. The tolerances on the rings could be machined to the min OD. The cylinder walls could be scored. The engine might not be running at 100% etc. The oil could be breaking down as soon as you put it in? By this I mean the additive package could be poor. There could be a large amount of oil deposits in oil, or sludge being cleaned etc. There are many factors that could be taking place. No one cut-and-dry answer.

Toyota or any non-American engine manufacture makes a damn fine engine. Don’t get me wrong, American engines or automakers are good but not as good as them. Look at Lexus, Audi, Honda, Toyota, etc. The cars keep going and going. Why to do think the Honda Accord is the #1 stolen car? The people who steal them because they hold there value because they are built so well. You don’t see many Buick’s, Saturn’s, or Chrysler’s being stolen!!! ***If you own one of these cars or trucks don’t take it personal. I have a Ford truck and a 91 Ford mustang LX (weekend car) and they are great, but is does not even closely compare to my wifes Lexus ES300. The Japanese just make a great car.

If you change your regular oil in fall and spring that is the absolute best thing you can do. Unless you use synthetics /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif. By doing the fall/spring change you will get rid the acid in the oil, water (if any), and restore the viscosity to the proper state.

So you are on the right track with the tolerance issue; however, there are some other things to consider.

Thanks
Mike
Like I told my last ex-wife, I only drive as fast as I can see...and besides, It's all in the reflexes
-Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

 

[john4nh]

I can see exactly how the tolerances could and I believe do make the difference between the rice burners and the american made.. But one thing I have noticed this on all my gm trucks I have owned 4 in the last 7 years, so i do not believe in my case that it is anything more then loose tolerances on the part of gm engines.. I just thought it was an interesting tidbit to the topic.. By the way Iam a union hand..But like you said those little cars will just keep going and going..

 

[putty340]

Hello Burnickas, you love sinthetic /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, I do think synthetic is a better oil, I was just saying that sinthetic was not worth the price for me, it might be worth it for someone else, just not me. Can you tell me why you think dino oils dont season an engine block, and why you just use them for breakin?

 

[gsxr1100]

Putty340—You guys are driving me nuts! (kidding). /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif Just when you think things are done, BANG, you “kick it up a notch”! As the great and wonderful Emeril Lagasse would say.

If synthetic oil is not worth it than that’s okay. I am not here to change the world, just some different ways to look at the issue. Dino oils don’t season any engine block because it (the oil) does not do anything. The oil does not “work into” the cast iron at all. Maybe a micro or two but that is nothing (only surface). Different oils will rid that “film” quickly. Some manufactures use dino oils for breakin so that the rings and cylinders become like a “matched set”. The dino oil supplies less of a slippery surface so the rings wear in more or quicker. Now, if you use synthetic oils /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif the rings do not wear as quick because the synthetic oil provides a more slippery surface. Hence, less friction means less wear. If you do this from the start (use synthetic), zero miles or hours the rings take longer to wear in. So, you might have oil consumption last a bit longer; however, you will have less wear in the end. I use synthetic oils from the start in all my equipment and I have had zero problems related with this procedure.

Round #5 over. I need some ice, Molsen that is!!!!

Thanks
Mike
Like I told my last ex-wife, I only drive as fast as I can see...and besides, It's all in the reflexes
-Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

 

[redhawk]

hi guys, i changed the oil in my 96 chevy extended cab shortbed 350 autotrans with 48k miles 2 weeks ago. i used
amsoil 2000 sae 0-30 severe service oil. first off the engine when started ran so quiet it was hard to tell it was on. i noticed a big difference in power right off. my gas milage has
gone from 13.84 mpg to 16.2 in two weeks. it is such a noticeable difference that i had to comment on this debate.
try it! you can always go back to your preferance. thanks

redhawk