An Electric Lesson

   / An Electric Lesson #61  
Charlie,

<font color=blue>So a question to you both. Are you really disagreeing, or are your differences in part in convention and
terminology, and part in discussion of theory</font color=blue>

No, our difference is not one of convention, but one of energy transfer through a conductor. Neither Dan nor I are smart enough to have figured any of this stuff out ourselves. My beliefs are based on the writings of some of the esteemed men of science. I have offered to provide specific references to those writings and challenged Dan to do the same.

<font color=blue>I studied Linus Pauling's Chemistry text in college................ I don't
remember, of course, what his book said, if anything, about electron flow vs. charge.</font color=blue>

Paulings text on Chemistry, and many others, provide the oxadation/reduction reactions for Zinc/Carbon and Lead acid battery. This reference was intended to identify the free electron generation in a battery.

Al
 
   / An Electric Lesson #62  
SHF,

<font color=blue>I always assumed it was electrons jumping the gap.</font color=blue>

Your assumption is correct./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The Plasma column in an arc is composed of a partially ionized gas. Gas molecules are "ionized" when neutral gas molecules separate into negatively charged free electrons and positively charged ions. This occurs by a number of different processes: High electric field electron and positive-ion collisions; absorption of radiation ; and thermal ionization, ionization by means of collisions with high temperature (high energy) electrons, positive ions and neutral molecules.

All of these processes occur in an arc; the relative importance of each is dependent on the location within the plasma column and the strength of the arc. The energy input to the plasma column is the Joule heating due to mobile current carriers. Since there is a large difference between the mass of an electron and the mass of a positive ion, there is a large difference between the response of an electron and a positive ion to an applied electric field. By far the majority of the current within the plasma column of an arc is carried by electrons.

Source Data: "The theory and Practice of Overcurrent Protection" by Patrick J. Mcleer, PHD., P.E. Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science University of Michigan.
 
   / An Electric Lesson #63  
ddl

I don't beleive that one. When I've gotten some breakers, they often have a sheet with them that indicate they are good for 10,000 operations (or something like that).

Twinkle Toes

I heard that all electrical devices operate on smoke. You can tell this, because when the smoke gets out, they stop working. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Also, I've noticed that British electrical devices (e.g. Lucas Electric) require more smoke than others. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

The GlueGuy
 
   / An Electric Lesson #64  
Dan,

<font color=blue>Thus this lead us back to the actual movement being charge and all equations deal with charge moving not electrons.</font color=blue>


It matters little what I think or what views we may present on this board. I really doubt that anything we have said will effect anyone on TBN to the slightest degree.
(other than humor)

What does matter is the teaching of young minds the views you have expressed.

Please review the following and verify the validity of the references. Begin Teaching your students a sound basis from which they may grow.

Theory of Conductivity in Metals (by Al, etal.)

Conduction of electricity in metals is known as the "electron gas" description of a metal.(1)

The laws obeyed by an electron gas are governed by Fermi-Dirac statistics.(3)

Statistical mechanics is the quantitative study of systems consisting of a large
number of interacting elements, such as the atoms or molecules of a solid, liquid, or gas, or the individual quanta of light (see photon) making up electromagnetic radiation. Although the nature of each individual element of a system and the interactions between any pair of elements may both be well understood, the large number of elements and possible interactions can present an almost overwhelming challenge to the investigator who seeks to understand the behavior of the system. Statistical mechanics provides a mathematical framework upon which such an understanding may be built. Since many systems in nature contain large number of elements, the applicability of statistical mechanics is broad. In contrast to thermodynamics, which approaches such systems from a macroscopic, or large-scale, point of view, statistical mechanics usually approaches systems from a microscopic, or atomic-scale, point of view. The foundations of statistical mechanics can be traced to the 19th-century work of Ludwig Boltzmann, and the theory was further developed in the early 20th cent. by J. W. Gibbs. In its modern form, statistical mechanics recognizes three broad types of systems: those that obey Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics, those that obey Bose-Einstein statistics, and those that obey Fermi-Dirac statistics.
Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics apply to systems of classical particles, such as the
atmosphere, in which considerations from the quantum theory are small enough that they may be ignored. The other two types of statistics concern quantum systems: systems in which quantum-mechanical properties cannot be ignored.
Bose-Einstein statistics apply to systems of bosons (particles that have integral values of the quantum mechanical property called spin; an unlimited number of bosons can be placed in the same state. Photons, for instance, are bosons, and so the study of electromagnetic radiation, such as the radiation of a black body involves the use of Bose-Einstein statistics.
Fermi-Dirac statistics apply to systems of fermions (particles that have half-integral values of spin); no two fermions can exist in the same state. Electrons are fermions, and so Fermi-Dirac statistics must be employed for a full understanding of the conduction of electrons in metals.
Statistical mechanics has also yielded deep insights in the understanding of magnetism, phase transitions, and superconductivity

Conduction of electricity consists of the flow of charges as a result of an electromotive force, or potential difference. The rate of flow, i.e., the electric current, is proportional to the potential difference and to the electrical conductivity of the substance, which in turn depends on the nature of the substance, its cross-sectional area, and its temperature.
In solids, electric current consists of a flow of electrons; as in the case of heat conduction, metals are better conductors of electricity because of their greater free-electron density, while nonmetals, such as rubber, are poor conductors and may be used
as electrical insulators, or dielectrics. Increasing the cross-sectional area of a given conductor will increase the current because more electrons will be available
for conduction. Increasing the temperature will inhibit conduction in a metal because the increased thermal motions of the electrons will tend to interfere with their
regular flow in an electric current; in a nonmetal, however, an increase in temperature improves conduction because it frees more electrons. In liquids and gases, current consists not only in the flow of electrons but also in that of ions. A highly ionized liquid
solution, e.g., saltwater, is a good conductor. Gases at high temperatures tend to become ionized and thus become good conductors (see plasma), although at ordinary temperatures they tend to be poor conductors.(2)

Source Material:

(1)Micro Electronics Digital and analog Circuits and Systems, Jacob Millman, PHD Columbia University. ISBN 0-07-042327-X389

(2)The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2000, Columbia University Press. Fermi-Dirac Statistics

(3)Chambers Dictionary of Science and Technology, ISBN 389 04482 2

Al (etal)
 
   / An Electric Lesson #65  
John,Ive heard such things but theve always sounded like a liability clause to me.I can't say Ive ever read it on any lit.(doesn't mean it ain't there) for any of the breakers I've installed regardless of maker...I have read how ever,that breakers should tipically be replaced about every 10-12 yrs.Even if they haven't tripped once.Though I can't say I've ever heard of any one spinding the $$$ to do it.Most folk I know figure "if ain't broke,don't fix it". I will say on a side note that I have a prefference of Square D over GE products.This based on personel experience in the field.I've shorted out a lot of ac circuits,often on purpose/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif,and Not once has A SQUARE D breaker not tripped for me.Others may dissagree.I can live that./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D
 
   / An Electric Lesson #66  
Paul you are exactly right, this guy was some sorta liability fellow. He basically keeps up to date on all the eletrical codes from osha are whereever they come from. He did say that the way homes are wired will soon be changed with the new set of regs coming out.
 
   / An Electric Lesson #67  
osha,yeap usually they insist on a change after some one gets hurt.They come out with a new code book every 3 yrs N.E.C.(Nat elc code)Last one I got is 96.The thing that always amused me when I did Elec.work was the last statement of most paragraghs in the book.AT THE ISPECTORS DISCRETION........If you think about it they can be held acountable to a sertain degree if they sign off on a job that was done improperly and some one gets hurt later...So it's kinda hard to blame them for being picky...

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D
 
   / An Electric Lesson #68  
Glueguy

What did I say about breakers. I know this has been a long thread but I don't remember saying anything about breakers.

Dan L
 
   / An Electric Lesson #69  
I think my theories are just fine, Last term one of my students scored the highest of any stsudents in the US on an exam given by a large company on the east coast. Another student topped the test given by a company on the west coast. But why are we having a pissing contest?? Insulting me does not do you well.

Dan L
 
   / An Electric Lesson #70  
GlueGuy

<font color=blue>all electrical devices operate on smoke<font color=blue>

<font color=black>THAT explains what happened to my fax machine! I plugged it in, the smoke got out and it didn't work anymore.

By the way, I finally figured out what causes wind--trees waving around. Everytime I go outside and it's windy, the trees are waving around. I think they're trying to get the wind to move soil against their roots, or maybe trying to get the wind to knock them over and crush me for living in a house made of their dead relatives/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

SHF </font color=black>
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2019 FORD F550 XL SERVICE TRUCK (A51243)
2019 FORD F550 XL...
UNUSED CFG INDUSTRIAL SSFM81 FORESTRY DRUM MULCHER (A51244)
UNUSED CFG...
Memo 98 Loader with Brackets (A50514)
Memo 98 Loader...
2022 CATERPILLAR 335 EXCAVATOR (A51242)
2022 CATERPILLAR...
19011 (A48082)
19011 (A48082)
2018 Ram 5500 Bucket Truck 4x4 with Versalift VST40 - 45FT Rotating Bucket and Jib Winch (A52128)
2018 Ram 5500...
 
Top