Anorher lithium battery fire

   / Anorher lithium battery fire #21  
Maybe the best thing would be to have a small "shed" for charging separate from the house, garage, barn or shop made of a non combustible material.
A good approach if someone has the discipline to use it. One of those cheap steel or plastic sheds would work. If it burns, no big deal anyway.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #22  
A couple months back we came close to a fire charging lead-acid batteries in a vehicle. Bad charger cooked em. Any time moving energy around there is a risk, lithiums just have more energy in them.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #23  
Stupid thought, but what about an old wood stove to keep your batteries in?
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #24  
Stupid thought, but what about an old wood stove to keep your batteries in?

I don't see what the age has to do with it, but I'd think putting batteries into the wood stove would introduce them to excess heat.



🤣
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Maybe the best thing would be to have a small "shed" for charging separate from the house, garage, barn or shop made of a non combustible material.
This is what I've been thinking about. The problem is that I've grown accustomed to having those tools in the truck; my cordless drill is like a third thumb. My impact wrench and booster pack are pretty useless to me if they're at the house. I'm just trying to be more careful about leaving them out of the sun.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #27  
Interesting thread... I charge my HF Bauer 20 volt Lithium batteries on the Bauer charger and leave them on the charger sometimes for weeks at a time and never had issue one. In fact, once charged they remain cool even if on the charger.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #28  
Interesting thread... I charge my HF Bauer 20 volt Lithium batteries on the Bauer charger and leave them on the charger sometimes for weeks at a time and never had issue one. In fact, once charged they remain cool even if on the charger.

This will be entirely speculation on my part, but I'm pretty sure they are supposed to stop charging when the battery is full, with any of the premium brands at least. The problem, again speculative, seems to come into play when those failsafe's cease to function.

Basically, everything works great, until it doesn't- and that's the issue.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #29  
I have been flying model airplanes for roughly 40 years, the last 20 of those it has all been electric. With the introduction of brushless motors and lithium batteries electric flying has really taken off.....get it.....oh well....anyhoo.

No one on the planet is more mean to batteries then toy airplane flyers, we want as light as possible for pretty clear reasons, and it is really common to pull well over 100A out of these little things for 5 minutes straight. They can be a bit toasty when they come down.

In the RC world they have things like this to store and charge the batteries in, these bags are to contain the fire.
View attachment 871695

Personally I have lost one plane in the air to a lipo fire, a fairly nice F9F Panther EDF jet. Looked like it got hit by flak or something, started smoking like crazy....if you have ever seen a lipo fire you know what I am talking about. I got it "almost" on the ground before it burned in two, starting a fire in the middle of the grass runway. These fires do not go out, the extinguishers are to keep the surrounding grass from catching fire. You just need to let them burn out.

Second one was during charging. It was just sitting there and I ran upstairs for just "a minute", come back down to flames. Move everything out of the way, get a large pair of channel locks pick the battery up trying not to breathe that junk, it is VERY bad for you, and got it into the driveway. Again just let it burn.

Now I charge all the "hobby" batteries in ammo cans. This was what people did before these bags came on scene. It works for me....at least so far.

Now tool batteries, I should know better having first hand experience with this, but I do just charge them all on a long shelf. I think I should re think that, but really I am just lazy. I like having the ability to just grab the tool and battery when I need it. They are all right there and easy to get.

But yes you should charge them all in something.

That all said however....

Tool, phone, laptop, whatever batteries are really very safe. They are generally over sized for their application, so you are not really working the batteries hard. This is key to making them happy. You will likely notice there is usually a third connection on most batteries, sometime more. This is USUALLY for some form of charging sensor, a temp sensor, voltage or amperage....something that will go back to the "smart" charger. The charger is to look at that and say NOPE I don't like what I am seeing here and will shut down the charge. Again I am sure most have put a tool battery on a charger and seen it come up with an error. Could be a great deal of things, but it could also be, expecially when being charged for a while, it went into something that the charger did not like.

You are pumping HUGE amounts of energy into these batteries, think of your battery tools and you are really amazed at just how powerful they are....they might rival your plug in tools in some cases, or at least run even with them for a while. All due to the battery. This is also why you see some high draw tools not run on the "smaller" batteries. It is just too much for the "little' battery and will damage it.

If you have read this far, then I feel the need to comment on electric cars. This falls into the area of our RC toys. Weight is the enemy here in a major way. So you are going to use the smallest battery with the lowest C rating you can to get the job done, just like in RC planes. That means that the battery is worked just that much harder, and that is not good on it. Same reason we see so many EV fires as we see RC fires, we are pushing the batteries very hard.

And how often here am I going to get a chance to post some pics of my planes, you can see the little Panther in the back of the pic. The Phantom will clock in at just over 90mph in level flight, and well over 100mph in a shallow dive. Checked on real cop radar gun.

View attachment 871697
If you want to see what a lithium battery fire looks like, watch Battlebots on discovery, some truly amazing battery abuse there!
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #30  
This will be entirely speculation on my part, but I'm pretty sure they are supposed to stop charging when the battery is full, with any of the premium brands at least. The problem, again speculative, seems to come into play when those failsafe's cease to function.

Basically, everything works great, until it doesn't- and that's the issue.
So far so good. In fact I just went out to the shop and pulled a 5AH battery fully charged off the HF charger. I don't believe the Bauer chargers put out a ton of power anyway. Takes at least 90 minutes to charge a 5AH pack from zip to 100%. Why I keep a few fully charged spares around.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #31  
I've got a lot of DeWalt 20V and Flexvolt rechargeable batteries for my DeWalt tools, probably about 150 to 200 amp hours worth. These range from a few 1ah to about 5 12ah.

I've read that it's to increase the life of the battery it is better to charge to 80% or 85% then let them rest or use them.
Does anyone know of a charger/maintainer that will charge them and shut off at about 85%?
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #32  
If you want to see what a lithium battery fire looks like, watch Battlebots on discovery, some truly amazing battery abuse there!
True, but.....

The point I was trying to make here is these batteries can go poof for "no reason". In the battlebot thing, they are taking hits and damage. In a model airplane (hopefully) there are no big bumps to them.

Generally when a battery gets to end of life, what I will do is shoot the thing. You can't just toss them, or should not, toss them in the trash for them to get crushed in the trash truck, again damage to the cell.

When it is too wet for me to go down to my range at home, it really is setup on some very wet land, I will do the salt bath for them till they get no where....followed by the dead short. That way I know they are safe to dispose of.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #33  
This is what happens to all the so called good ev's
Now these are the first ev's and there's been a lot of
changes that have been made to improve them


willy
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #34  

I like the idea in general, and others' discussion of a concrete bunker to keep your charging station in - together with the collapsible sand-filled ceiling.
Maybe have the charging station be in a sump; dump water in so it's completely submerged rapidly. Yes, it'll continue to burn in the water and you'll get a lot of steam, nothing else is going to catch fire.

LiPo battery fires are ~2,000°C; melting point of steel ~1,500°C.
The charging safe should probably have some sort of an alarm on that thing because I don't know how long it's going to last.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #35  
A couple months back we came close to a fire charging lead-acid batteries in a vehicle. Bad charger cooked em. Any time moving energy around there is a risk, lithiums just have more energy in them.

It's not just the energy density. As has been brought up in a number of threads such as this, the biggest problem with Lithium-Polymer/LiIon batteries is that once they catch fire, you literally can't put the fire out - you have to wait for it to burn itself out and all fire-fighting can do is manage the burn site so that as little else as possible catches fire.

In a way you can liken it to a nuclear meltdown. You just have to wait for it to go out on its own, you're not putting the fire out.
 
   / Anorher lithium battery fire #36  
In 2012 we were driving to AK with our dually and 5er trailer. I plugged the charger into my camera battery. Forgot about it, went to bed. about the middle of the night I was awoke by a gunshot. I immediately thought, unusual for Canada.
Got up, walked through the trailer and found the smoking battery laying on the kitchen floor, which thankfully was tile.
Then like a dump a__ picked up the battery and got 2nd degree burns on my fingers. By then smoke had triggered the smoke alarms. Not only did the alarms wake DW, it also woke the people in the RV beside us, which added embarrassment to the humiliation of nearly burning up my RV-and us.
As a consequence, Now I only charge lithium batteries when I'm present, which gives me a great excuse to putter around in the garage for a few hours.
BTW, I have a 50# bag of cheap kitty litter in the garage for soaking up spilled oil, i works as good smothering agent for fires too.
 
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   / Anorher lithium battery fire #37  
BTW, I have a 50# bag of cheap kitty litter in the garage for soaking up spilled oil, i works as good smothering agent for fires too.
It's difficult to smother a lithium battery fire since it generates it's own oxygen. The kitty litter might help contain the fire though.

As others have mentioned earlier in the thread, I use a twist timer and never charge unattended.

I go a step further with my large lithium e-bike batteries. I charge them on a dolly on the concrete floor of the garage under a smoke / CO2 detector. Should a fire start, I can open the garage door and push the dolly outside with a garden rake in less that a minute.

When not on charge, I store them in steel ammo cans.

1739710828970.jpeg
 

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