Another dealer visit, more thinking

   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( My use of engine braking is to control the rate of descent, in other words, to slow the tractor, or I guess more accurately, to keep it from speeding up going downhill. I use the brake to actually stop.)</font>

You could also use the brake to slow down.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just watch your speed when approaching the downhill. Make it a manageable descent. If you have 4wd, the rears should not skid independant of the fronts. There was another thread about increased braking ability in 4wd.
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Okay, let's try this again to make sure everyone understands what I'm asking.

I currently have a B7100 Kubota with loader. It's a gear machine. I drive it in 4wd all the time. I have slopes ranging from about a 3/12 pitch to about 5/12. Nothing is flat except the floor of the house and shop. I move mulch, manure, rocks, firewood, deadfalls, and the occasional log. I have 4 forks projecting from the front of the bucket to facilitate carrying bulky objects. I have loaded rear tires, about 130lb of concrete on the rear lift arms, 150 or so lb of ROPS that I added to the tractor, and a seat moved back about 3 inches to accomodate my long legs, thus setting my 210 lb. farther back, and the rear wheels are at maximum width. That makes about 500 or 600 lb on the rear of the tractor, maximum polar moment on the lateral axis, and so on. The loader is supposed to lift 500lb, so I have a rear weight equal to the maximum of the loader.

If I have a bucket of rocks, mulch, or green wood and am moving around the property, I often need to go downhill. With the tractor in gear, letting off on the throttle (excuse me, enginie speed control device) allows the engine compression to slow the tractor, or keep it from going faster. This is what I mean by engine braking, just like in a manual tranny car or truck. The retardant force imposed by the front wheels is a significant part of controlling the speed of the tractor. In 2wd, the rears would skid. If I push in the clutch and use only the brakes to control my speed, the rears skid. I can find myself on these same hills with my hydro Cadet 109 moving downhill while the rear wheels are either locked or spinning backward. This is on my driveway or mowing the lawn, gentlemen, not hot dogging around in the woods.

When driving a hydro ST28a on the dealer lot, I had an opportunity to descend a short but fairly steep hill that I had just driven up. It seemed that the tractor did not slow down a whole lot when I lifted off the go pedal.

I'm wondering if this lack of retardation by the engine is pretty much par for the course with hydro tractors. If so, can I push the reverse pedal to slow the tractor? I know there are no gears involved, but moving fluids and valves and such. Still, will pushing on the reverse pedal while going forward downhill with a load in the bucket and ballast onthe back cause any harm to the machinery? I hasn't hurt the Cadet since the wheels just spin, but the loads involved there are considerably less. That tractor's brake pedal essentially moves the hydro lever to neutral before actaully engaging the brakes, thus using the hydro to slow the tractor. With a bigger tractor and a loaded bucket and ballast, will the hydro slow the tractor on a hill? Presume 4wd is locked in.

Of all the new hydros I've looked at, only the Deere has the brake pedal positioned so I could use the brake and the rear hydro pedal simultaneously to control my speed. All the others I've driven are an either/or situation since the pedals are all on the same side. In that case, if the rear gets light, using the brakes will not help much, so the question is -- will the hydro slow the rate of descent in 4wd?
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #13  
After reading all your posts on this subject I think you should just keep the tractor that you have and enjoy life. It appears to be the only one that is just right. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ken /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Nah, it's too small and tippy. I'm just trying to figure out what will work, spending time waiting for a house to sell so I can actually buy one. I'm learning a lot about what I want, but as I learn more, my ideal tractor keeps changing size and color.

The shuttle shift sounds like the tranny I need, but as far as I've been able to find out, they only come on tractors that are bigger than I think I need. I can get a deal on CNH hardware, but have sentiment towards Kubota based on the reliability of my little one. Like I tried to describe in one post, the thing will apparently be a melage of colors and features. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #15  
Ummm .. plain english ... you cannot stop a tractor going downhill with an HST transmission by taking your foot off of the speed pedal. You will have to use the brakes ....
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #16  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( After reading all your posts on this subject I think you should just keep the tractor that you have and enjoy life. It appears to be the only one that is just right.)</font>

I agree with Ken...got that same feeling reading all your posts too.

From doug:
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Ummm .. plain english ... you cannot stop a tractor going downhill with an HST transmission by taking your foot off of the speed pedal. You will have to use the brakes .... )</font>

Gee, that's what I was thinking too...Let's see...25% to 41.67% slopes? Use brakes??? Makes sense to me... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Doesn't matter what size tractor going down those slopes...
Perhaps dateacha needs to be a better student? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #17  
The hydro will hold you back a lot, maybe not as much as a gear tractor would, but it will hold you back. I found this out the hard way. Going down a steep grade with nothing on the back of the tractor and I wasn't in 4x4 the tractor tilted the rear up in the air and took off like a rocket down the grade. I had been down that same grade several times before with a full bucket of dirt in 4X4 and the speed was easily controlled.
I have been on 3/12 grades that the hydro held me in place on the hill with no brake, although I wouldn't depend on that enough to get off the tractor without setting the brake /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking
  • Thread Starter
#18  
I do use the brakes, guys, but it isn't enough when the back end is light from the combination of the load and the slope, despite the ballast I carry. So, if the HST pedal is left alone, as in when I have my foot on the brake on most HST machines, does the engine add to the retardation force imparted by the brakes? On a gear tractor, it does, and I feel I need that extra retardation in whatever I buy.

It seems Doug is saying that all I would have working for me is the brakes, but others, like Steve, seem to think the engine would also be working to slow the tractor. I got the impression from others that the engine would contribute to speed control on a hill, so apparently you guys don't all agree on the subject, or different machines act differently in that scenario.

Since I don't feel that the brakes alone would be enough, I think this is another reason to not get a hydro. Thanks.
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #19  
I have the shuttle shift and it works exactly like any gear tractor but goes in reverse the same speed as the forward. It slows with lower rpm of the engine on grades and is a plus (for me anyway) on loader work.
 
   / Another dealer visit, more thinking #20  
I used to have a gear driven B-7200 which is very close to your 7100 and on slopes going up and down, I prefer my new 7800 hydro. The reason being is that if for some reason you would need to stop on that hill, on the 7200 you have to push the clutch and the brake which means only the brake is holding you where as on the hydro, you still have the hydro holding you plus the brake.
I would go to a dealer and test the machine you are looking at with the hydro. I was suprised at how much the hydro will hold when stopped.
If that is your only concern with a hydro it will work fine for you. If there are others, go with the gear as they are usually less expensive too.
 

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