Another Newbie Looking for Advice

[SmokemanGRP]

I was pretty sure I wanted 4WD but now I am convinced. As stated, I would rather have it and maybe rarely use it then not have it and find that I need it. Especially if I end up buying a smaller, lighter tractor.

The discussions regarding HST versus gear were very interesting and helped me visualize using each tranny type. For my purposes I think either would work for me. I do not plan on mowing so I would not have the problem of bogging down in thick brush; the property is level so I would not have to frequently change gears due to terrain and I do not anticipate FEL work to be my primary use. The majority of my time will be maintaining the driveway and walking path with a box blade. I can see advantages in having an HST but I don't think I will rule out gear trannies.

But I am still not 100% clear on the use of these two types of trannies. In my case the RPM of the PTO is not an issue, just the ground speed for scraping the dirt. For the sake of argument, let's say Medium range is appropriate for the job I am doing, regardless of tranny type. With a gear tranny I would select a gear, let's say 3rd, and I would use the throttle to control my speed. If I need a slower or faster speed than 3rd gives me I would downshift or upshift. With the HST I would select an RPM (no need to run the PTO at optimum RPM) and use the foot pedal to control my speed. If I had it to the floor and still needed more speed I would bump the throttle. At a lower RPM the foot pedal would simulate a lower gear; at a higher RPM it would simulate a higher gear. Do I understand this correctly?

 

[Gittyup]

HST's are usually best operated at full or PTO throttle. Speed is controlled by foot pedal, which controls the hydraulic tranny. Throttle should not be the normal means to control speed. HST is very nice. But, you might find that gear is better for your tasks, and will save you some money.

If you plan to do the work yourself, and you're not mowing, I'd suggest one of the true TLB's like a Bota L39 or Kioti LK3054 or JD. If you are buying a machine mostly for digging, buy heavy. The heaviest tractors are Branson, Mahindra, and Kioti. The above mentioned Kioti is a tremendous value too.

 

[putt_putt_green]

But I am still not 100% clear on the use of these two types of trannies. In my case the RPM of the PTO is not an issue, just the ground speed for scraping the dirt. For the sake of argument, let's say Medium range is appropriate for the job I am doing, regardless of tranny type. With a gear tranny I would select a gear, let's say 3rd, and I would use the throttle to control my speed. If I need a slower or faster speed than 3rd gives me I would downshift or upshift. With the HST I would select an RPM (no need to run the PTO at optimum RPM) and use the foot pedal to control my speed. If I had it to the floor and still needed more speed I would bump the throttle. At a lower RPM the foot pedal would simulate a lower gear; at a higher RPM it would simulate a higher gear. Do I understand this correctly?

You have it right for the gears. I'll let the HST people verify the HST.

If the gears are not synchronized, you will have to stop the tractor to change gears. If the gears are synchronized, you can shift while moving. To change ranges, you need to stop the tractor (I think you need to do this with HST also). If the gear tractor has a shuttle shift the tractor will have same number of forward gears as reverse gears, and you can shift between forward and reverse without a clutch by using a hand lever (some tractors might require a the clutch in this scenario).

 

[mikim]

Go to Tucson and go window shopping. Sit on 'em, start 'em up, drive 'em around the lot...talk to the dealers about $$, service, get a gut feel for the dealer and try to find someone who has dealt with them. Do it several times to narrow your search. There are a lot of brands out there that are good --and they all have a size for your application - which one feels good under your butt? Only you can answer that. You've done your online search - but you need to do the touchy feely.

 

[SmokemanGRP]

HST's are usually best operated at full or PTO throttle. Speed is controlled by foot pedal, which controls the hydraulic tranny. Throttle should not be the normal means to control speed. HST is very nice. But, you might find that gear is better for your tasks, and will save you some money.

If you plan to do the work yourself, and you're not mowing, I'd suggest one of the true TLB's like a Bota L39 or Kioti LK3054 or JD. If you are buying a machine mostly for digging, buy heavy. The heaviest tractors are Branson, Mahindra, and Kioti. The above mentioned Kioti is a tremendous value too.

Thanks for the HST RPM clarification. As far as building the driveway and the trenching I think I'll hire that work out since it is a one time job.

 

[Gittyup]

Just to let you know what you can do with a relatively small tractor: I have a Kioti CK25 gear TLB (25 hp). I've trenched 50' of septic, 100' of gas line, 150' of 4' inch drain tile. I've removed several huge stumps. I've loaded, moved, and graded about 250 tons of dirt on a 300' driveway, loaded and moved 200 or so yards of mulch. Gathered and disposed of huge piles of brush. I've accomplished this "leisurely" over the course of 2 years (220 hours). So, you can do everything you want, IF YOU WANT TO using a modestly sized tractor. In my case, other than the stumps, a bigger machine probably wouldn't have saved me much time.

 

[Gittyup]

As far as building the driveway and the trenching I think I'll hire that work out since it is a one time job.

I thought so too. Then I got some bids. Way too much money. And that is what prompted me to buy a tractor. Under most circumstances my tractor is still too big for my little 2.5 acre lot. Until one considers the tasks I'm doing, and the costs to contract them out. Since I'm not in a hurry, doing things myself will more than pay for the tractor. I've probably already paid for half the tractor with what I've done so far. And I'm having fun (mostly) while doing it.

Oh yeah, I have also installed 500 feet of split rail fence.

The backhoe is the hardest to justify, but sure is nice to have when you need it. Back in the November, I found a huge doe (~140 lbs or so) dead on my property. No sweat, just fired up the backhoe and buried her.

 

[patrick_g]

Different strokes for different folks. For me, HST is NOT best used at PTO speed and only varied by HST pedal.

Understand that the HST pedal varies the "gear ratio" from 0 to 100% of which ever gear range you are in. With my Kubota I have neutral, low, medium, and high range. You must stop and use the clutch to shift among these.

Low is slow but very powerful and NOT used to travel very far. It will let me go up a hill with a full FEL bucket while dragging a full box blade with the digger teeth (scarifiers) engaged when the box blade I had been dragging in medium range was too much load going up hill.

I use the medium range the most. It is a good compromise for power and speed. It is a good match for FEL and box blade work. It is good for brush hogging. It is good for traversing distances in a field where high speed is just not possible due to rough terrain.

High range is for highway travel, mowing smooth areas that are not let go until they are a jungle and such as that.

There are RPM settings below which you should not WORK your engine. With my 39HP Kubota running a 6 ft brush hog I typically run at least 2000 RPM but more likely 22-2400 depending on the load presented by the job. My PTO speed is 2600. I only need to run it up that fast for the most demanding jobs when I need plenty of umph.

With no load and an RPM about 2400 I can mow fairly heavy material and stay above 2000 RPM by varying the HST pedal as needed. If I hit an extra dense area I can ease up on the HST and go slower allowing the tractor to put out more energy per foot of forward travel. I can also advance the throttle to PTO speed (or more sometimes for a brief period but I try to avoid really high RPM.)

Sometimes in dense material I may advance the throttle to the max but keep RPM at or below PTO speed by pressing on the HST pedal to increase forward speed and give the tractor more work to do so the RPM does not go to high. This last method requires a bit of coordination and familiarity with your equipment since if you let up on the HST you will increase RPM, perhaps more than you like. When stopping or slowing appreciably you need to ****** the throttle before letting up on the HST pedal.

Suffice it to say, if you can't rub your tummy and pat your head while chewing bubble gum and walking all at the same time, you will rev your engine to the max trying this.

The same techniques described above related to brush hogging are fully applicable to box blading, pulling a plow, disk, etc.

HST allows the operator more degrees of freedom in controlling the tractor activities. That is not to say that you can't do useful work of many kinds with geared tractors because you certainly can. Shuttle shift and synchronized gears let you approximate in some circumstances the control you get with HST.

Is HST better? Maybe, maybe not. Define better. It can cost more to buy, service and maintain. Take a simple example. You have an electric drill. Single speed on off control but reversible vs a variable speed reversible drill. For some jobs the variable speed is NOT better. For some it is crucial. Which is better? Can't say unless I know what you will use it for. I don't think a new tractor buyer knows what they will end up using their tractor for. Well, many here will tell you once they got their tractor with an X, Y, or Z implement they don't know how they lived without them even if they weren't sure the X, Y or Z would get much use prior to using it.

Ask for a show of hands of the people who started out on an HST tractor, have subsequently used geared tractors, and wish they didn't have HST.

Pat

 

[SmokemanGRP]

Pat, thanks for the detailed description on how you use your HST; that was very helpful. And thanks to everyone else for their advice. Now, as Mike suggested, I need to visit some dealers and kick some tires.

Greg

 

[patrick_g]

SmokemanGRP, To the Brits, GRP is Glass Reinforced Plastic which we colonials call fiber glass.

There are a lot of misunderstandings and erroneous assumptioins made and promulgated by folks who don't have much experience with hydrostats (or maybe have never operated one larger than a riding lawn mower.) I can't claim to be doing it right as "RIGHT" is difficult to nail down in a dynamically varying environment and I am sure there are alternate approaches to doing some of the things I do, and maybe better than how I do them.

My intent was to give you a small sample of operating techniques that work and a little insight into HST use. If anything you hear from other sources conflicts strongly with what I said, then I recommend you consider how it is that it works well for me as I was not relating conjecture or third party misunderstandings and assumptions but tried and tested methods. I allow as to how there could be better ways to do anything I do, I just haven't stumbled upon them nor had it explained to me but would love to hear about better approaches.

My advice is to not limit your tractor purchase such that it just barely has the capability to do only those exact tasks which you are currently aware you need to do. Once you get some seat time and the "new" wears off you will find there are just lots of jobs where the tractor can be the tool of choice. If you are too conservative in your purchase you may seriously limit your ability to take on jobs you did not originally envision. I personally lean more toward the "Leatherman" or "Swiss Army" tractor, preferring to put $ into versatility rather than brute force. Some others just want HP. It is a mater of personal preference. I like to be able to do lots of jobs (albeit not always super fast) rather than a few jobs faster.

If I were row cropping I'd have a much more powerful tractor with a gear tranny but probably still with a cab and air.

Pat