Another Perspective on Katrina

[JimR]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">( I have just quit watching the coverage. I don't want to listen to it any more. I was thoroughly disgusted with the feeding frenzy against the federal government. Clearly, they could have done a better job in the first few days. But there is plenty of responsibility to go around.

First and foremost is the personal responsibility. There was a mandatory evacuation order after all. Second was the mayor. He made a good call to evacuate. But where was the execution of his evacuation plan? Per Macquaid's article, it included evacuation of those without transportation. And the Governor.... he should have mobilized the LA. National Guard (about 1/3 of which is on post in Iraq) and opened all NG Armory's as shelters. Before these guys rail against the federal government, they should look a little closer to home.

Just tired of the press and their view that it's the federal government's responsibility to fix ALL problems. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif )</font>

I just read another interesting article about how some states are trying to conserve on their funds by letting the Federal Government come in during disasters. Makes you kinda wonder if this is exactly what happened in New Orleans. Also this morning Campbell Brown asked the Mayor of New Orleans why he put all those people in those 2 places with no food or water. He did not answer the question. She also asked him why these people were not evacuated to begin with. He again did not answer the question. So now the question is, Did the Mayor of New Orleans in fact intentionally leave behind 10% of the population to die because they were poor as has been stated in a few other articles I've seen?

Here's the latest that I just found.



Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

Inevitably, the involvement of dozens of agencies complicated the response. FEMA and its parent agency, the Department of Homeland Security, were in charge of coordinating 14 federal agencies with state and local authorities. But Mayor C. Ray Nagin of New Orleans complained Wednesday on CNN that there were too many cooks involved.

Unlike a terrorist attack or an earthquake, Hurricane Katrina gave considerable notice of its arrival. It was on Thursday, Aug. 25, that a tropical storm that had formed in the Bahamas reached hurricane strength and got its name.

The same day, Katrina made landfall in Florida, dumping up to 18 inches of rain. It then moved slowly out over the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico, growing by the hour.

Though its path remained uncertain, the Gulf Coast was clearly threatened, with New Orleans a possible target. Officials from the Pentagon, the National Guard, the Army Corps of Engineers, FEMA and the Homeland Security Department said they were taking steps to prepare for the hurricane's arrival.

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Reporting for this article was contributed by Eric Schmitt, Thom Shanker and Matthew L. Wald from Washington; Christopher Drew and Susan Saulny from Baton Rouge; Joseph B. Treaster from New Orleans; and David Rohde from New York..
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[OkeeDon]

Was the Federal government responsible? The Corps of Engineers built the levees. Immediately after the storm, it appeared the city was in pretty good shape. If nothing had changed, the criticism might have gone the other way -- the Mayor might have been blamed for declaring an unnecessary evacuation.

But, the levees failed. The city flooded. And the Federal government, which is responsible for the levees and their failure and the resultant flooding, did almost nothing for the first 4 or 5 days.

I heard both the President and the Director of FEMA state that "no one could have predicted" the levees would break. Yet, for years of articles and days of media coverage ahead of the storm, that is exactly what was predicted.

Yesterday, I watched a long line of helicopters make repeated trips to evacuate the poor, the sick, the elderly and the infirm who were not able to get out ahead of the storm. It took over 5 days for those helicopters to be put into action. That is unforgivable! Anyone who watched television for the past week knows that FEMA, Homeland Security, the military and the President all spent the first 3 days of that time, the most critical period, saying that "all is well and things are going smoothly." The same claptrap the same people give us about Iraq.

Are they really that stupid?

 

[Junkman]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( .............Are they really that stupid?
)</font>

With out a doubt...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[BoneheadNW]

I mentioned this on the other thread concerning the hurricane, but regardless of what anyone thinks the Feds should/should not have done, there is no excuse for the people in position of power to deny having known what might have happened. Specifically, homeland security secretary Chertoff this article and FEMA director Brown Brown's comments were either lying or completely out of touch with reality regarding the state of affairs in the south.

Do you trust these people with the lives of Americans in need?

Bonehead

 

[KentT]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do you trust these people with the lives of Americans in need?

Bonehead )</font>

How about this one?

Mayor Nagin's latest fears

 

[Cityboyfarmer]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(


Yesterday, I watched a long line of helicopters make repeated trips to evacuate the poor, the sick, the elderly and the infirm who were not able to get out ahead of the storm. It took over 5 days for those helicopters to be put into action. That is unforgivable!

)</font>

Don,

Have you considered that perhaps the local New Orleans government and the Louisiana state government bear a large responsibility for the failure to get help to their own citizens? I am sure you have seen the photograph of the hundreds of school buses that sit idle and flooded that could have been used for evacuation, even before the levee’s broke. It is also my understanding that both local and state governments failed to even implement their own plans which were in place.

As I stated in the beginning of this thread, aircraft cannot immediately fly in and begin rescue operations. Flight plans and air traffic controls must be in place. Staging and landing areas must be secured. Fuel reserves and refueling plans must be in place. Mechanics and flight crews must be on hand. It took months and months of planning before the first boot hit the ground in Iraq. Why would anyone realistically believe the federal government could provide instant relief?

We cannot change what has happened. We must deal with it now to the best of our abilities. Blaming the federal government does nothing to help those people who find themselves stranded in New Orleans for what ever reason they happen to be stranded there. When the smoke clears and the water recedes, the truth will come to light and we will see who failed to perform their duties and to what extent those failures led to the current conditions being witnessed.

 

[Tom_H]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( First and foremost is the personal responsibility. There was a mandatory evacuation order after all.)</font>

Though I do not fully agree with them, there are those who would claim that the government should not have the authority to order them from their homes. More importantly though, many of those who didn't evacuate were not able to because they did not have the means or ability to do so. Some didn't have cars. Some couldn't buy gas as supplies were used up by those already fleeing the city. The roads were clogged. Many of these were elderly and homebound persons. People infirmed in the hospital are not able to exercise any "personal responsibility" to evacuate themselves.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just tired of the press and their view that it's the federal government's responsibility to fix ALL problems. )</font>

I will agree with the "ALL" part of your statement. In this particular case, however, I cannot see how the state and local authorities have the response capacity that the feds do. We live in a federal republic, which means that quasi-autonomous states handle their local governance, but that the central government's authority supercedes that of the state and local governments. In my own mind, when a central government assumes supreme authority, it concurrently must assume the ultimate responsibility as well. Prior to the Civil War, there was no federal army. Each state had its own militia and that militia held its ultimate allegiance to the state, not the federal union. After the Civil War, the U.S. army adopted a policy of units being composed of men from various states integrated together so as to eliminate the provincial loyalties which had previously existed within units. This was not practical prior to the Civil War due to the fact that most people never traveled more than 35 miles from their birthplaces and the primitive state of transportation systems. After the war, with the advent of better transportation, it was possible. Today, the majority of military funds go to the federal military, not to state militias. Though we do still have state militias, i.e. National Guard, they can be federalized at the order of the Commander in Chief. In this case, the Commander in Chief of the federal government, already had federalized the National Guard and sent them off to fight in a foreign war. When a federal government takes the vast majority of the tax dollars out of a state, places them into federal service units such as the military, FEMA, etc., federalizes the state militia and sends it away to a foreign war, then it behooves (falls upon one as his responsibility) the federal government to assume the burden of action. If we lived in a confederal union, as we did from 1776-1787, then those tax dollars would have stayed at home and the state would have had/should have had the resources to assume responsibility and act. That is simply not the nation in which we live, and to pretend otherwise is sheer folly.

Let's look at the state of the union two and a half generations ago. The country had to spend its way out of the Great Depression then expend human and financial resources to fight and win the greatest war in history. Europe and Japan lay in utter ruin far far worse than what we see in the Gulf Region. Despite the already overwhelming federal debt and a looming Cold War, our leaders knew that the Marshall Plan had to be executed in order to bring stability to a world full of anarchy. Our country alone rebuilt the entire continent of Europe and the islands of Japan. Despite all this, by the time of the Eisenhower administration, the economy was roaring.

We can do this. We will do this. And, it will be the United States who does it, not the state of Louisiana.

 

[OkeeDon]

Of course, I've considered that there is more that every level of government can do. For example, I've seen those pictures of 205 school busses that could have carried 50 people each safely, or 100 people each crammed to the gills. That would have taken up to 20,000 people out of harm's way -- providing they could have made their way through traffic, etc., and that there was somewhere for them to go when they got there...and would have left a mere 80,000 people in the floodwaters.

But, earlier in this thread there was already plenty of bashing of the local, parish and state levels, and a lot of excuse-making for the federal level. I thought it was time for someone to point out that the emperor is naked.

I'm also perfectly aware of the preparation time to get results. I can even pin the time down fairly accurately: 3 days to make excuses, 1 day to decide to do something, 1 day to prepare and then there are helicopters! No one said anything about an "instant" response. A little bit of alert to the flight crews when the storm crew above a category 3 would have been enough...

...I knew the levees were only built to withstand category 3, how is it that people who are supposed to know, didn't? I'm not really all that smart, so they must really be stupid.

The simple fact of the matter is that our resources are spread so thin, between tax cuts and the war, that our officials first look for excuses to do nothing. The sad thing is, when they finally face facts that they have to do something, it usually ends up costing more than it would have to do the right thing in the first place.

 

[RedDog]

<font color="blue">Was the Federal government responsible? The Corps of Engineers built the levees. Immediately after the storm, it appeared the city was in pretty good shape. </font>

Your absolutely right!! I don't recall any mentioning of the funds for improving and maintaining the levees being cut dramatically!!

<font color="blue"> The same claptrap the same people give us about Iraq.
</font>

Ain't that the truth!! All the money spent over there could really be used down South. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

RedDog

 

[Bob_Skurka]

To Everyone, but nobody in particular, but I really hope the Moderators & site owners take this to heart!


We have STRAYED into POLITICS. Not just on this thread but on all the threads about Katrina. Now you might think that a right wing Republican type who swings a bit right of the John Birch Society, hangs around with the great great great grandchildren of Attilla The Hun, and who was honored to not only work the Dan Quayle Campaigns but also accepted an invitation to visit the Reagan White House and has met with a former Prime Minister of England and discussed terrorism, Arafat, Hafasd Al Assad, well you'd have to think that I would LOVE THE RIGHT WING BIAS that I see in these threads. After all, "my side" of the political spectrum is well represented in these forums. But it really strikes me that while the "right" generally is trouncing the "left" none of it belongs here!

I think the moderators are allowing these threads to go on too long. I think the moderators are deleting some of the posts that support the left (and showing a further right bias). I think that we are not being productive, and in fact we are DIVIDING OURSELVES and DRIVING OFF members that we really should be talking tractors with.

This is not a political site.

This is a tractor site.


PLEASE, moderators, PLEASE stop these discussions before our obvious right wing bias chases off some of our left wing tractor owners who we really enjoy having here. We really don't need to know each other's political bias to discuss tractors. And I am just as guilty at injecting bias as the rest, so I will take my lumps and accept my own criticism. Now can we close these threads before too much damage is done?