Junkman
Super Member
Amen Brother..... well stated...... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Another Unnecessary Tractor Death
- Thread starter JDNineNinety
- Start date
- Views: 1816
JerryG
Super Member
Don is right in all counts. Any good fabricator will find a solid point to start. He won't just stick it to a fender. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif And even with a factory ROPS, one has to try to avoid a roll.
I'm not sure of the difference between fabricators and welders, but most of the guys I work with, when asked to build something, will overengineer it significantly. Since they aren't making it for production and trying to cheapen it up, it is usually build WAY heavier than it needs.
Best wishes,
ron
Best wishes,
ron
Taylortractornut
Elite Member
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- 2,770
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- Iuka Mississippi USA
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- 3550 Fard Backhoe and a 1948 Farmall Cub,
Im with Okee Don and JunkMan on this one. Ive made several rops for tractorsfrom Cubs all the way up to H and M Farmalls. I alwas make a nice sub frame on the ones I can get strongenough mounts on. I always mock up from the top of the bar to the top of the engine block to providet protection. We had one built at a shop a few years ago for a 4000 Ford at work, our new helper got it under a huge brand and it made the tractor stand up before he clutched it. I have seen some good example of both types of roll bars/rops and learned new things from most of them.
Soundguy
Old Timer
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- Mar 11, 2002
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Any competent cage builder is going to look at the structure of the tractor and, if he can't find something solid enough for a mount, will start whereever it is solid, and fabricate from there. )</font>
My point is.. there will be some applications, where the frame of the tractor itself is not sturdy enough to survive side loading. In many cases.. these antique tractors are using the engine oil pan/block, and clutch bell housing as frame. Some of the farmalls, and certaintly many of the 20hp and under tractors from the 30's, 40's and 50's wave as little as a 2" pipe as a frame running between the rear diffy and the tranny.
In that case.. there is simply NOTHING strong enough to bolt to on the tractor.. save building a complete subframe.. in which case it would be simply cheaper an easier to buy a different tractor.
I'm not doubting the skills of the welder.. its just that the variables don't always add up. Modern tractors were designed for rops.. antiques weren't designed with those specs in mind.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( also have to come down on the side of "something is better than nothing." It has been suggested that this is a mistake, because a faulty design might inspire false confidence. All I can say is, anyone who gains enough confidence from their factory-designed, "certified" ROPS to ignore the danger is even dumber than the guy with no ROPS at all.
)</font>
I've personally seen someone trapped inside a wire cage that was attatched to a homade rops on an overturned tractor. The rops actually didn't fail. However the cage deformed and injuried the operator, and ultimately 'killed' him, as they could not extract him fast enough. I'm sure he felt safe too. ( tractor was setup with forks for forklifting.. drove off the side of the raised concret loading dock.. tractor actually only fell on its side.. rops help.. but due to the extensive frame work of the rops.. which did defom.. the operator was pinned and died on the scene before crews could cut him free ).
A simple 2 post rops 'might' have been a different situation..hard to say though.
Soundguy
Soundguy
My point is.. there will be some applications, where the frame of the tractor itself is not sturdy enough to survive side loading. In many cases.. these antique tractors are using the engine oil pan/block, and clutch bell housing as frame. Some of the farmalls, and certaintly many of the 20hp and under tractors from the 30's, 40's and 50's wave as little as a 2" pipe as a frame running between the rear diffy and the tranny.
In that case.. there is simply NOTHING strong enough to bolt to on the tractor.. save building a complete subframe.. in which case it would be simply cheaper an easier to buy a different tractor.
I'm not doubting the skills of the welder.. its just that the variables don't always add up. Modern tractors were designed for rops.. antiques weren't designed with those specs in mind.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( also have to come down on the side of "something is better than nothing." It has been suggested that this is a mistake, because a faulty design might inspire false confidence. All I can say is, anyone who gains enough confidence from their factory-designed, "certified" ROPS to ignore the danger is even dumber than the guy with no ROPS at all.
)</font>
I've personally seen someone trapped inside a wire cage that was attatched to a homade rops on an overturned tractor. The rops actually didn't fail. However the cage deformed and injuried the operator, and ultimately 'killed' him, as they could not extract him fast enough. I'm sure he felt safe too. ( tractor was setup with forks for forklifting.. drove off the side of the raised concret loading dock.. tractor actually only fell on its side.. rops help.. but due to the extensive frame work of the rops.. which did defom.. the operator was pinned and died on the scene before crews could cut him free ).
A simple 2 post rops 'might' have been a different situation..hard to say though.
Soundguy
Soundguy
Soundguy
Old Timer
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
</font><font color="blueclass=small">( I alwas make a nice sub frame on the ones I can get strongenough mounts on )</font>
That's exactly my point... the tractor itself was obviously not strong enough, as it was.. and a subframe was needed.
At what point is a job 'too much'. Cubs go for 1000 agerage runner to 2500 minty restored and great runner.
At what point do you decide that the 200$ subframe and rops is the wrong direction to go on your 1500$ roadside mower?
Keep in mind I'm also looking from an employers standpoint here. According to osha.. I can't let an employee on a tractor without an 'approved' rops. If I retrofitted a roll bar.. I'm quite sure that I, and my company, and the fabricators company would be the defendent in the wrongfull death suit.. even if the rops functioned as designed, and it was 100% operator error.. even down to something stupid like not wearing a seatbelt.. etc.
Another tractor sub i'm on, there is a person discussing something similar.. a wrongfull death suit over an old tractor ( 50 + years old ). No matter who was at fault in reality.. when it comes down to it.. the lawyers are going to make somebody pony up money...
This is also akin to modifying factory rops. For instance.. reading the flyspec print in my NH owners manual.. if you modify the factory supplied rops.. you are pretty much waiving any claim for loss due to an accident. Things like drilling and cutting the rops were specifically mentioned.
I would hate to be the fool that actually had a defective rops fail, and die.. but my family couldn't sue due the the fact that I had to add a light to my rops by drilling it, and giving the company a 'free pass' rather than using the dozer other ways to mount the light that might not have voided the warranty. All in all.. it's the lawyers and product liability laws that drive the safety standards.. not an overwhelming desire to keep people safe..
Personally.. I think that if people 'stupid' themselves to death.. they are helping the gene pool by weeding themselves out... I knw that seems harsh.. but I'm tired of seeing labels on my peanut butter that says 'may contain peanuts! ' .. ( YES i have a jar i bought the other day that states this on the back.. )
Soundguy
That's exactly my point... the tractor itself was obviously not strong enough, as it was.. and a subframe was needed.
At what point is a job 'too much'. Cubs go for 1000 agerage runner to 2500 minty restored and great runner.
At what point do you decide that the 200$ subframe and rops is the wrong direction to go on your 1500$ roadside mower?
Keep in mind I'm also looking from an employers standpoint here. According to osha.. I can't let an employee on a tractor without an 'approved' rops. If I retrofitted a roll bar.. I'm quite sure that I, and my company, and the fabricators company would be the defendent in the wrongfull death suit.. even if the rops functioned as designed, and it was 100% operator error.. even down to something stupid like not wearing a seatbelt.. etc.
Another tractor sub i'm on, there is a person discussing something similar.. a wrongfull death suit over an old tractor ( 50 + years old ). No matter who was at fault in reality.. when it comes down to it.. the lawyers are going to make somebody pony up money...
This is also akin to modifying factory rops. For instance.. reading the flyspec print in my NH owners manual.. if you modify the factory supplied rops.. you are pretty much waiving any claim for loss due to an accident. Things like drilling and cutting the rops were specifically mentioned.
I would hate to be the fool that actually had a defective rops fail, and die.. but my family couldn't sue due the the fact that I had to add a light to my rops by drilling it, and giving the company a 'free pass' rather than using the dozer other ways to mount the light that might not have voided the warranty. All in all.. it's the lawyers and product liability laws that drive the safety standards.. not an overwhelming desire to keep people safe..
Personally.. I think that if people 'stupid' themselves to death.. they are helping the gene pool by weeding themselves out... I knw that seems harsh.. but I'm tired of seeing labels on my peanut butter that says 'may contain peanuts! ' .. ( YES i have a jar i bought the other day that states this on the back.. )
Soundguy
ByronBob
Veteran Member
Nobody gets on a tractor with the idea of flipping it over. I don't feel anymore comfortable with my ROPS to do stupid things. But if I was on an older tractor and the opportunity was available to try and put something like a ROPS on it then why not? The odds of survival should increase and I'm still not going to flip it over on purpose.
