Antifreeze/Engine Coolant

Anonymous Poster · Jul 27, 2001

What's the popular antifreeze "base" now a days? About to change/flush the engine coolant in a 770 (24HP Yanmar Marine Diesel). Couldn't get any pre-mix at John Deere dealer or truck stop. I've got DCA4 and test strips.

Thanks.

cowboydoc · Jul 27, 2001

Scott,
Instead of the DCA4 I'd just go with the Fleetguard precharged. That way you never have to mess with it again. We've been using it for years with no problems at all.

Anonymous Poster · Jul 27, 2001

Thanks, did some more snooping around the Interent last night, I'm going to hold off until I can get some precharged.

Thanks again.

TWINKLE_TOES · Jul 29, 2001

cowboydoc,

What the heck are you talking about? "base", "precharge"??
I think I'm about to learn something. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

cowboydoc · Jul 29, 2001

Twinkle Toes,
Diesels get what is called cavitation where the vibration in the engine and resulting currents around the linings in the piston causes them to eat themselves away and cause block failure. You have to use something that will coat the sleeves and prevent this from happening. DCA4 or SCA4 is a chemical that coats the sleeves and prevents cavitation from happening. You can either add it or get a coolant that is pre-charged with it. On pickups because of the seals you can't use most precharged coolants with them and have to have the test trips and periodically check the system to make sure it is charged. With tractors, trucks, etc. they just have a prechargerd antifreeze or a filter that you replace that continually replaces it.

TWINKLE_TOES · Jul 29, 2001

Thanks Doc, appreciate the response./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

cowboydoc · Jul 29, 2001

Twinke Toes,
No problem, glad I could help. The Fleetguard is the best that I've found and the cheapest, $5.99 a gallon at Farm & Fleet. Not all diesels will do it but it's such cheap insurance it's not even worth taking a chance.

Anonymous Poster · Jul 29, 2001

Just to expand on Richard's reply...

On your tractor's diesel engines...don’t use an automotive type antifreeze…they usually have a higher silicate level that’s more compatible with the aluminum parts used on car engines… An ag/diesel type antifreeze has a low silicate level. When you use automotive antifreeze or add the wrong coolant additives, you can end up with a gel situation which can clog the passages in a diesel engine and radiator. Special additives are used in ag type to minimize the air bubbles causing the cavitation… especially damaging on a wet sleeve cylinder liner.

Here are some problems that can occur from using a lower grade or automotive type antifreeze.

Gelling.

Plugged radiators

Pitted Liners or cavitation erosion.

Doublezero · Jul 30, 2001

John,

I'm facinated with this discussion and can almost understand the gelling and plugging. Where can I learn more about the pitting caused by the bubbles? 00

Anonymous Poster · Jul 30, 2001

Hi Larry,

You can go to John Deere's parts/supplies and they have a short blurb...

Mostly, I've learned talking with different ag engineers over the years. What really surprised me was the conditioners... that "too much" of a good thing can be detrimental causing the slim and gelling, ending up being a "bad thing". /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

The cavitation problem is very famous in jetski pumps, hydraulic pumps, cylinder liners, etc. It's remarkable the damage "air bubbles" can perform on these devices.

I always thought antifreeze was antifreeze was antifreeze..., but there really is a difference!

StanInCalif · Jul 31, 2001

00 -
Maybe you could find "implosion" on this vast computer network. You might have to go to a pump manufacturer, such as Hale, Berkely, or darley to find it. Tiny bubbles form on the water jacket side of the cylinder wall. The force of combustion causes these bubbles to implode (opposite of explode) ; when they do, they take a small chunk of metal with them. The problem is worst with the bigger trucks and tractors that work hard and have wet sleeve engines. They should be using the aforementioned test strips and/or replenishing the additive annually. For most of us, I think we can just add the recommended amount and forget about it for several years. As I understand it, coolant conditioner prevents the formation of the bubbles. Dealer should have it. In my area it is available at parts stores as Nalcool, Wixcool, or FW-16 from your friendly Ford dealer (they use it in their power strokes). - Stan

Anonymous Poster · Jul 31, 2001

The action of the cavitation/air bubbles is similar to sandblasting action... instead of sand... it's constant bursts of air.

Another issue with wet sleeves is the temperature differences of hot and cold... when the air bubbles form, the air displaces all coolant surrounding it preventing "cooling action" on that minute part making minature "hot spots"...

A number of things are occurring at once, between the temperature differences, the coolant flow, the chemical properties of the coolant, and the air bubbles bursting... an "electrolysis type action" results... causing the destroying actions of pitting, burning, metal etching etc.

Doublezero · Aug 2, 2001

John & Stan,

Thanks for the information! This has been a real learning experinence for me.

Larry (00)

Bird · Aug 3, 2001

My little Kubota manual only calls for "'permanent" type antifreeze with no mention of cavitation, pre-charged, etc. However, it'll soon be two years old and the manual recommends changing at two years, so I was at the Tractor Supply Co. store last week and bought "Fleet Charge" antifreeze at $6.49 a gallon. I don't know whether it's any different from the "Fleetguard" or not, but says it's pre-charged, for "big" diesels, etc.

Bird

Von · Aug 3, 2001

Bird,
I just changed mine using the fleet charge antifreeze. It was 2 years in July, and I have a 190 hours on it already. Also I am going to go to man made oil on the next change! I don't think it will make any difference, but it might help in our cold winters.

DFB · Aug 3, 2001

Interesting discussion for sure. Not at all familiar with stuff the big boys use. I'll have to check it out too.

The type of engine coolant recommended in the manual for a JD 4100 (beyond the John Deere brand name) /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif is to use an ethylene glycol base coolant "for automobile and light duty service", labeled for use in aluminum engines spec ASTM D3306. It also specifies not to add any other type of additives or conditioners to to the cooling system. It also mentions the preferred anti-freeze provides corosion protection and compatability with seals and hoses on the cooling system, and guards against cylinder liner pitting.

What is also important is the quality of the water used to premix with. A distilled or deionized is described as ideal, and potable water low in chloride and hardness is generally acceptable. Accordingly water that doesn't meet the minimum purity requirements will cause excessive scale and sludge deposits and increase corrosion potential.

DFB

cowboydoc · Aug 3, 2001

You're find Bird. Alot of the diesels don't mention it in the manuals but it's a real problem. Some engines are more prone to it than others. Alot of times you'll see different applications for the same motor and when it gets to the other application they don't mention it in their manual. ie. the international diesel is put in a number of small and large pickups and trucks. For all the trucks and buses that the T444 diesel is put in they have a filter added to the motor that continually charges the antifreeze. In the Ford pickup they took off the filter and originally never told people to do it. Then they started having all these motors come in with cavitation. They put it in the manual but you can still go to a number of Ford dealerships and they don't know what the heck you are talking about. Anyway you look at it it's cheap insurance for a diesel.

cowboydoc · Aug 3, 2001

"guards against cylinder liner pitting"

This is what the cavitation is DFB. You have to use the pre-charged antifreeze to guard against this. Kind of misleading as they tell you to use automobile and light duty service antifreeze but this will not protect against cavitation. They really should tell you to use pre-charged to protect against this which you wouldn't put in any automobile, unless of course it was a diesel.

gvw · Aug 3, 2001

Richard - you are absolutely correct in that the Ford Dealers are clueless on this issue - when I have asked/ discussed the issue w/ the dealer where I purchased my Powerstroke ride - the service manger advised that they always used the standard type antifreeze on every thing! Just happened to check mine last night from haveing some work done - test strip showed the numbers way off -- think that the last time it was in to have the turbo worked on they dumped my good stuff and put back in standard automotive type ---- grrrrrrrrr!
This was noted before -but -anyone needing further info can also look at the ford-diesel.com page for information overload