Any experience with radiant heat?

   / Any experience with radiant heat? #1  

DrDan

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2001
Messages
351
Location
Ohio
Tractor
G1800 & BX2200
I am in the final stages of planning my 30' X 80' pole building. It is going to have a 30 X 40 shop and 15 X 30 office that I want to heat with the tubing in the concrete hot water system. Supposedly you can heat the water with a hot water heater. To minimize running lines to the building, I was starting to think of using an electric hot water heater. Am I gonna regret that when I have natural gas close by? Also interested in putting a heating coil in wood burner in the shop to supplement the heater and hopefully keep it from sucking up energy while I'm in the shop. I'm a woodworker and have lots of scraps. Also has anyone ever figured out a way to burn sawdust? Sure would save a lot of work hauling it away. If you get into planning lumber a 5 HP planer will fill a three bushel canvas bag in about ten minutes. So let me know your experiences.

Thanks

Dr Dan
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #2  
Dan,
That type of heat works really well but it's expensive to set up. I'm going with baseboard heaters and a woodburner. The only time the baseboard heaters will come on is when it is below 40 to keep the pipes from freezing. When we're there we will have a fire in the woodstove to keep warm. As far as the sawdust I use all mine for bedding for the horses. I'm sure there are people around you that would gladly take it off your hands.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #3  
You need to run antifreeze in the lines.
You can run antifreeze in a hot water tank.
So you need a heat exchanger and two circulating pumps.
I've found this site very helpful.
http://www.radiantdirect.com/

Bx2200-(Altered,-Crop).jpg

Winnipeg, Manitoba
canadagoose.gif

2001 BX2200 (26 hrs)
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #4  
I would imagine that electric would be expensive beyond belief. You also want to put insulation beneath the slab so that the earth dosen't suck all your heat. Likewise, consider using plastic pipe so that you don't have to worry about cracks rupturing your lines. It's real ugly when a radiant heat pipe ruptures.

The GlueGuy
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #5  
Dr Dan
I am rehabbing an old house. I decided that the new heating system was to be radiant floor. After discovering the cost of having it done, I opted to do it myself. It can be very labor intensive. The first thing that needed to be done was to have the rubblestone foundation replaced (it was collapsing). I saw this as the perfect opportunity to heat the floor of my new to-be woodworking shop. I had the contractor put 2 inch polystyrene down on the soil...this acts both as an insulator and a vapor barrier. Then he laid the mesh on top of that. I attached the floor tubing to the mesh using cable ties. After that a standard concrete floor was laid. Because I have divided the basement into two areas, I am using two circulators, each with its own thermostat. Because I intend to heat the entire house with this system I chose a Polaris hot water heater (100,000 BTU, 98% efficient) a bit pricey but I'm hoping to heat 4500 square feet. About 900 sf will be the shop. I envy your 1200 sf shop.
Unless your local utility is giving away electricity, forget it..the cost will be quite high.
Very important..maximize the insulation in both the walls and ceiling. RF heat is sensitive to this. Also, RF heat is slow to react. Every company that I talked to said that recovery time can be up to 4 hours. In other words, if you plan to set back the thermostat when your are not in the shop, you will need to anticipate when you will be there to reset the temp to where you will want it. In a woodworking shop it is nice having the heat underneath your feet. Also, as a side benefit, because the heat source is underfoot, the thermostat can be set 4 to 8 degrees lower than if using forced hot air.
Additionally, you will discover that running 2, 3, 5 HP machines will themselves add signifcant heat to the room (electric heat).
Considering the explosive nature of sawdust, I am not convinced that a woodburner in the shop is a good idea. Same goes for burning sawdust..do not "toss" sawdust into open flame. It will explode.
I do know how quickly a DC will fill up when using the planer. I do what Norm does, bag it and give it to a neighbor who raises chickens and rabbits. (Just make sure there's no walnut).
BTW, have you tuned in to Badger Pond?
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #6  
Dr Dan

Okay, you're in Ohio so your winters aren't quite as bad as ours usually. You will need insulation under your slab, a couple of inches of pink or blue board (extruded polystyrene), to keep the ground from sucking your heat. The hydronic systems I have seen operating have all run off small boilers. I have heard of people locally running them off water heaters, but haven't run across one of them yet. I had planned to run radiant in the new house, but the contractor talked me out of it as it is quite expensive. About 50% more than what I paid for a top of the line conventional furnace with zone control and all the options. But, I did a lot of research on the radiant systems over several months, before I talked with the contractor.

There are some pretty good advantages, number 1 being space, since everything is in the floor. An electric water heater will not work unless you are someplace like Texas. The recovery rate--the speed the water will heat in the tank-- is not fast enough, and you will go through elements real quick since they are not designed to run continuously. There are systems (available on the internet) which are designed to run on a water heater. The heater of choice is a 125,000 BTU Polaris commercial gas fired water heater of some 75-80 gallons in size. There are a couple of good websites. You might try a search on "Radiantec". (Don't bother searching on Polaris and boiler unless you like submarines.) A loop in a woodstove would work very well. Just have to watch the input temp so it doesn't exceed the rated temperature for the PEX tubing that will be run through the floor. I also found a reference to a radiant wall, where the turning was run through the wall. There's an awful lot of information out there about this, try some searching and have your printer handy. Some of these sites have 100 pages or so of printable instructions.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #7  
Dr. Dan,

I have been looking at radient systems as well as solar alternative housing the last couple of weeks. I have learned some interesting things.

We are seriously considering putting in a radiant heating system in the house we are planing. North Carolina does provide some tax credit's for solar technology so you might want to check your state to see if they have anything similar. I got a rough qoute for a solar water heater that was around $3,500. OUCH! BUT the state would refund about $1,400. Still to much. BUT for $4,600 I could get a hot water heating system that when coupled to radiant flooring would provide 20-40% of the heat of the structure. The tubes cost $1 per square foot. I don't know if that was installed or just cost of materials. The state would pay up to $3,500 for the water heating system so I would only be out $1,100 plus tubing. Sounds like a better deal. If more heat is required they can put up more solar collectors. These are rough guestimates on the cost since the supplier, http:// [url]www.radiantec.com [/url] did not look at a floor plan.

For us this seems like a good approach to dig into further.

http:// [url]www.enertia.com [/url] is a solar house building here in NC that has a list of interesting sites as well...

Later...
Dan McCarty
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #8  
In a previous incarnation I was the Energy Conservation Officer of SUBASE SANDIEGO. This got me into some classes put on by the AIA (Like AMA for doctors but for Architects) in energy efficient architecture which included in-floor hydronic heat. Since then I have spent over 5 yrs part time extensivley researching mechanical systems for my next house. I have fell in and out of love with various systems. Geothermal (Gex) with in-floor hydronics was a real heart throb but overkill for an earth sheltered structure that one architect characterized as being able to be heated with a candle and cooled with a bag of ice.

I have toured earth sheltered homes that are heated soley by a water DHW (domestic hot water) heater with in-floor hydronics.

Even in a SUPER POST all the angles can't be covered, even touched on.

I think unless you super insulate you will regret going electric. Another post mentioned anti-freeze, yes but not automotive! Crosslinked polyethelene (PEX) tubing is THE thing for in slab tubing. Way back in the late 40's and 50's copper tubing and other piping got used. It dies over time in contact with concrete, don't do it. Be careful. Some PEX is perfectly OK when fresh but has a fairly rapid deterioration with exposure to UV. This might not be something that the builder's supply store or its distribution chain thinks about. If the stuff is stored in a UV exposed location, not unusual for bld materials, it could be a real nightmare for you later. Some of it is UV protected, it says in the fine print. BE CAREFUL!

Electric vs gas???? Do the math. When asked the gas vs electricity cost in the future imposible question I recommend insulation. Insulation is a better investment than the choice of gas vs elec. Brief econ lecture: As clean air legislation drives utilities to gas via emission rules/penalties it is cheaper for utils to burn expensive gas than retrofit to burn oil or coal cleanly or build new plants to burn oil or coal cleanly. This puts utilties with essentially infinitely deep poskets (our collective pockets) in competition with residential nat gas users (us again). Both gas and elec (derived from gas) will spiral up together. There will be various perturbations that temporarily make one a better choice but over time insulation is the best investment.

For greater depth of discussion, contact me privately.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat?
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Yes I have definitely put electric on the back burner. Too expensive and yes I have been in contact with Radiantec and am aware of the Polaris Hot Water Heater. It seems that for my size building I need the 7/8" tubing (PXC Poly) which is equivalent to PEX but can only stand 150 degree water. I don't want to mess with mixing valves etc to get water temp down out of boilers. The way to go as I've been informed so far is the Polaris Heater which is stainless steel lined. They have come down lots in price.
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #10  
DrDan, The floor doesn't care how you get the heat. You can burn your waste oil, lanolin from your sheep, peanut hulls, cotton linters, dried corn, or more practically your waste wood scraps. The only safe way I know to burn sawdust is after it is pressed into pellets. Long way to say you could have an alternative fuel source. The valving to accomodate it is simple and relatively inexpensive. In-floor hydronic does not lend itself to economical/convenient part time heating. The thermal lag of the recommended slab thickness (5 1/2 inches) for in-floor hydronic can be considerable.

Some sanity check items:

I would "run the numbers" on extruded unicellular insulation in thicknesses greater than 2 inches for under the slab. (Blue board etc.) You might get a payback in less than 5 yrs, maybe 3 or less. If this were a continuous occupancy structure (like a fulltime residence) then a heat bubble in the earth beneath the bld isn't quite so wastefull providing you stop the hemoraging of heat at the perimeter.

I sure wouldn't just throw in the towl on electric heat. Run the numbers on an in floor electric resistance heating grid. No, water, tubing, pumps, etc. Uses electricity 100% efficiently and delivers the heat where you want it without going through intermediate hocus pocus.

Heat pumps with a high SEER (seasonal energy efficiency ratio) can use electricity to heat the floor with an efficiency of maybe 300% or more (check some web sites). How do you get more than 100% efficient? Easy. With resistive heating (infloor grid, water heater, or the like) one Killerwatt (inside joke) of electricity yields one kilowatt of heat. A heat pump doesn't "burn" electricty to make heat, it uses electrical energy to move already existing heat from one place to another. One kilowatt of electricity in a high efficiency heat pump can yield 3-400 kilowatts of heat. That is until the heat source (outside air or whatever) is so low grade of "heat ore" that the process just stalls. With many heat pumps this is when the outside air goes into the teens or lower. But wait, there is a way 'round this.

Got a pond? Got enough land that will trench efficiently near the building to support a geothermal heat pump? Got a well that produces really good? Even in northern Minnesota or, dare I say it, Minot, ND the temp a few feet down in the ground is about 50 degrees F all the time, all winter and both days of summer. It is dead easy (with respect to the thermodynamics) to mine heat out of 50 degree dirt. So heating in the winter is easy. If you want to install some fan coil units to give you AC and dehumidification in the summer that is OK too as you already have the pumps. Do a web search on geothermal heatpumps (gex?) The pond? Toss a weighted coil of PEX in it and take heat out of the water. In summer heat it with your waste heat. All the heat need not be waste as you can use the rejected heat from the AC to heat your DWH (Domestic Hot Water, Jacuzzi, swimming pool, etc.)

No pond? Don't want a pond? OK, dig a trench and bury the PEX. The underground PEX or under pond water PEX replaces the air based heat exchanger with freon to a water filled heat exchanger with water or dirt instead of air supplying the heat (or accepting it in cooling season.

However you get the heat, insulate the perimeter of the slab to a level well below your frost line to avoid a continuous energy nose bleed.

I could go on for pages but I gotta go pick some pears as a gift for some friends. There is yet more you migt want to consider before throwing yourself on the mercy of someone with a different set of priorities than yours, As in the folkks who want to sell you something.

Patrick
 

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