Any experience with radiant heat?

   / Any experience with radiant heat? #1  

DrDan

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G1800 & BX2200
I am in the final stages of planning my 30' X 80' pole building. It is going to have a 30 X 40 shop and 15 X 30 office that I want to heat with the tubing in the concrete hot water system. Supposedly you can heat the water with a hot water heater. To minimize running lines to the building, I was starting to think of using an electric hot water heater. Am I gonna regret that when I have natural gas close by? Also interested in putting a heating coil in wood burner in the shop to supplement the heater and hopefully keep it from sucking up energy while I'm in the shop. I'm a woodworker and have lots of scraps. Also has anyone ever figured out a way to burn sawdust? Sure would save a lot of work hauling it away. If you get into planning lumber a 5 HP planer will fill a three bushel canvas bag in about ten minutes. So let me know your experiences.

Thanks

Dr Dan
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #2  
Dan,
That type of heat works really well but it's expensive to set up. I'm going with baseboard heaters and a woodburner. The only time the baseboard heaters will come on is when it is below 40 to keep the pipes from freezing. When we're there we will have a fire in the woodstove to keep warm. As far as the sawdust I use all mine for bedding for the horses. I'm sure there are people around you that would gladly take it off your hands.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #3  
You need to run antifreeze in the lines.
You can run antifreeze in a hot water tank.
So you need a heat exchanger and two circulating pumps.
I've found this site very helpful.
http://www.radiantdirect.com/

Bx2200-(Altered,-Crop).jpg

Winnipeg, Manitoba
canadagoose.gif

2001 BX2200 (26 hrs)
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #4  
I would imagine that electric would be expensive beyond belief. You also want to put insulation beneath the slab so that the earth dosen't suck all your heat. Likewise, consider using plastic pipe so that you don't have to worry about cracks rupturing your lines. It's real ugly when a radiant heat pipe ruptures.

The GlueGuy
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #5  
Dr Dan
I am rehabbing an old house. I decided that the new heating system was to be radiant floor. After discovering the cost of having it done, I opted to do it myself. It can be very labor intensive. The first thing that needed to be done was to have the rubblestone foundation replaced (it was collapsing). I saw this as the perfect opportunity to heat the floor of my new to-be woodworking shop. I had the contractor put 2 inch polystyrene down on the soil...this acts both as an insulator and a vapor barrier. Then he laid the mesh on top of that. I attached the floor tubing to the mesh using cable ties. After that a standard concrete floor was laid. Because I have divided the basement into two areas, I am using two circulators, each with its own thermostat. Because I intend to heat the entire house with this system I chose a Polaris hot water heater (100,000 BTU, 98% efficient) a bit pricey but I'm hoping to heat 4500 square feet. About 900 sf will be the shop. I envy your 1200 sf shop.
Unless your local utility is giving away electricity, forget it..the cost will be quite high.
Very important..maximize the insulation in both the walls and ceiling. RF heat is sensitive to this. Also, RF heat is slow to react. Every company that I talked to said that recovery time can be up to 4 hours. In other words, if you plan to set back the thermostat when your are not in the shop, you will need to anticipate when you will be there to reset the temp to where you will want it. In a woodworking shop it is nice having the heat underneath your feet. Also, as a side benefit, because the heat source is underfoot, the thermostat can be set 4 to 8 degrees lower than if using forced hot air.
Additionally, you will discover that running 2, 3, 5 HP machines will themselves add signifcant heat to the room (electric heat).
Considering the explosive nature of sawdust, I am not convinced that a woodburner in the shop is a good idea. Same goes for burning sawdust..do not "toss" sawdust into open flame. It will explode.
I do know how quickly a DC will fill up when using the planer. I do what Norm does, bag it and give it to a neighbor who raises chickens and rabbits. (Just make sure there's no walnut).
BTW, have you tuned in to Badger Pond?
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #6  
Dr Dan

Okay, you're in Ohio so your winters aren't quite as bad as ours usually. You will need insulation under your slab, a couple of inches of pink or blue board (extruded polystyrene), to keep the ground from sucking your heat. The hydronic systems I have seen operating have all run off small boilers. I have heard of people locally running them off water heaters, but haven't run across one of them yet. I had planned to run radiant in the new house, but the contractor talked me out of it as it is quite expensive. About 50% more than what I paid for a top of the line conventional furnace with zone control and all the options. But, I did a lot of research on the radiant systems over several months, before I talked with the contractor.

There are some pretty good advantages, number 1 being space, since everything is in the floor. An electric water heater will not work unless you are someplace like Texas. The recovery rate--the speed the water will heat in the tank-- is not fast enough, and you will go through elements real quick since they are not designed to run continuously. There are systems (available on the internet) which are designed to run on a water heater. The heater of choice is a 125,000 BTU Polaris commercial gas fired water heater of some 75-80 gallons in size. There are a couple of good websites. You might try a search on "Radiantec". (Don't bother searching on Polaris and boiler unless you like submarines.) A loop in a woodstove would work very well. Just have to watch the input temp so it doesn't exceed the rated temperature for the PEX tubing that will be run through the floor. I also found a reference to a radiant wall, where the turning was run through the wall. There's an awful lot of information out there about this, try some searching and have your printer handy. Some of these sites have 100 pages or so of printable instructions.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #7  
Dr. Dan,

I have been looking at radient systems as well as solar alternative housing the last couple of weeks. I have learned some interesting things.

We are seriously considering putting in a radiant heating system in the house we are planing. North Carolina does provide some tax credit's for solar technology so you might want to check your state to see if they have anything similar. I got a rough qoute for a solar water heater that was around $3,500. OUCH! BUT the state would refund about $1,400. Still to much. BUT for $4,600 I could get a hot water heating system that when coupled to radiant flooring would provide 20-40% of the heat of the structure. The tubes cost $1 per square foot. I don't know if that was installed or just cost of materials. The state would pay up to $3,500 for the water heating system so I would only be out $1,100 plus tubing. Sounds like a better deal. If more heat is required they can put up more solar collectors. These are rough guestimates on the cost since the supplier, http:// [url]www.radiantec.com [/url] did not look at a floor plan.

For us this seems like a good approach to dig into further.

http:// [url]www.enertia.com [/url] is a solar house building here in NC that has a list of interesting sites as well...

Later...
Dan McCarty
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #8  
In a previous incarnation I was the Energy Conservation Officer of SUBASE SANDIEGO. This got me into some classes put on by the AIA (Like AMA for doctors but for Architects) in energy efficient architecture which included in-floor hydronic heat. Since then I have spent over 5 yrs part time extensivley researching mechanical systems for my next house. I have fell in and out of love with various systems. Geothermal (Gex) with in-floor hydronics was a real heart throb but overkill for an earth sheltered structure that one architect characterized as being able to be heated with a candle and cooled with a bag of ice.

I have toured earth sheltered homes that are heated soley by a water DHW (domestic hot water) heater with in-floor hydronics.

Even in a SUPER POST all the angles can't be covered, even touched on.

I think unless you super insulate you will regret going electric. Another post mentioned anti-freeze, yes but not automotive! Crosslinked polyethelene (PEX) tubing is THE thing for in slab tubing. Way back in the late 40's and 50's copper tubing and other piping got used. It dies over time in contact with concrete, don't do it. Be careful. Some PEX is perfectly OK when fresh but has a fairly rapid deterioration with exposure to UV. This might not be something that the builder's supply store or its distribution chain thinks about. If the stuff is stored in a UV exposed location, not unusual for bld materials, it could be a real nightmare for you later. Some of it is UV protected, it says in the fine print. BE CAREFUL!

Electric vs gas???? Do the math. When asked the gas vs electricity cost in the future imposible question I recommend insulation. Insulation is a better investment than the choice of gas vs elec. Brief econ lecture: As clean air legislation drives utilities to gas via emission rules/penalties it is cheaper for utils to burn expensive gas than retrofit to burn oil or coal cleanly or build new plants to burn oil or coal cleanly. This puts utilties with essentially infinitely deep poskets (our collective pockets) in competition with residential nat gas users (us again). Both gas and elec (derived from gas) will spiral up together. There will be various perturbations that temporarily make one a better choice but over time insulation is the best investment.

For greater depth of discussion, contact me privately.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat?
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Yes I have definitely put electric on the back burner. Too expensive and yes I have been in contact with Radiantec and am aware of the Polaris Hot Water Heater. It seems that for my size building I need the 7/8" tubing (PXC Poly) which is equivalent to PEX but can only stand 150 degree water. I don't want to mess with mixing valves etc to get water temp down out of boilers. The way to go as I've been informed so far is the Polaris Heater which is stainless steel lined. They have come down lots in price.
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #10  
DrDan, The floor doesn't care how you get the heat. You can burn your waste oil, lanolin from your sheep, peanut hulls, cotton linters, dried corn, or more practically your waste wood scraps. The only safe way I know to burn sawdust is after it is pressed into pellets. Long way to say you could have an alternative fuel source. The valving to accomodate it is simple and relatively inexpensive. In-floor hydronic does not lend itself to economical/convenient part time heating. The thermal lag of the recommended slab thickness (5 1/2 inches) for in-floor hydronic can be considerable.

Some sanity check items:

I would "run the numbers" on extruded unicellular insulation in thicknesses greater than 2 inches for under the slab. (Blue board etc.) You might get a payback in less than 5 yrs, maybe 3 or less. If this were a continuous occupancy structure (like a fulltime residence) then a heat bubble in the earth beneath the bld isn't quite so wastefull providing you stop the hemoraging of heat at the perimeter.

I sure wouldn't just throw in the towl on electric heat. Run the numbers on an in floor electric resistance heating grid. No, water, tubing, pumps, etc. Uses electricity 100% efficiently and delivers the heat where you want it without going through intermediate hocus pocus.

Heat pumps with a high SEER (seasonal energy efficiency ratio) can use electricity to heat the floor with an efficiency of maybe 300% or more (check some web sites). How do you get more than 100% efficient? Easy. With resistive heating (infloor grid, water heater, or the like) one Killerwatt (inside joke) of electricity yields one kilowatt of heat. A heat pump doesn't "burn" electricty to make heat, it uses electrical energy to move already existing heat from one place to another. One kilowatt of electricity in a high efficiency heat pump can yield 3-400 kilowatts of heat. That is until the heat source (outside air or whatever) is so low grade of "heat ore" that the process just stalls. With many heat pumps this is when the outside air goes into the teens or lower. But wait, there is a way 'round this.

Got a pond? Got enough land that will trench efficiently near the building to support a geothermal heat pump? Got a well that produces really good? Even in northern Minnesota or, dare I say it, Minot, ND the temp a few feet down in the ground is about 50 degrees F all the time, all winter and both days of summer. It is dead easy (with respect to the thermodynamics) to mine heat out of 50 degree dirt. So heating in the winter is easy. If you want to install some fan coil units to give you AC and dehumidification in the summer that is OK too as you already have the pumps. Do a web search on geothermal heatpumps (gex?) The pond? Toss a weighted coil of PEX in it and take heat out of the water. In summer heat it with your waste heat. All the heat need not be waste as you can use the rejected heat from the AC to heat your DWH (Domestic Hot Water, Jacuzzi, swimming pool, etc.)

No pond? Don't want a pond? OK, dig a trench and bury the PEX. The underground PEX or under pond water PEX replaces the air based heat exchanger with freon to a water filled heat exchanger with water or dirt instead of air supplying the heat (or accepting it in cooling season.

However you get the heat, insulate the perimeter of the slab to a level well below your frost line to avoid a continuous energy nose bleed.

I could go on for pages but I gotta go pick some pears as a gift for some friends. There is yet more you migt want to consider before throwing yourself on the mercy of someone with a different set of priorities than yours, As in the folkks who want to sell you something.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #11  
Patrickg

Another option would be to build an outdoor wood burner and pump the heat in through conventional heat ducts. Of course, it eliminates the in slab heating, but you don't have the heat lag and can burn waste wood and paper scrap for part of the heat which helps keep the ol homestead cleaned up. So far, I've only seen these units heating residences, not garages or barns, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. The one I helped build is currently suppplying a 1.5 story, earth contact, 3 bedroom home. Sole heat source and seems to be doing well. Construction is simple, but labor intensive.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #12  
Patrick,
If I get my house sold and build over at the other place I was going to go with geothermal. Tell me more about what you think is the best way to go about that please.

Thanks,

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #13  
cowboydoc,

I'm a Civil Engineer and have done a couple of Geothermal installations, so if I can help I'd be glad to do so. FYI, Geothermal is like any other heat source in that you can use it for radiant, forced air or any number of other delivery systems. Hope this helps.

Eric
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #14  
Eric,
I would love to know anything you can tell me about what the best way to do this would be. I've been told that heating and cooling are $50 a month. True? Also I know there are a number of ways to install them as well. What do you feel is the best way? I'm not limited by my options at the new place. Thanks alot.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #15  
SHF, He isn't in Rome but he could still do what the Romans did or at least a modern adaptation. Put some hollow clay pipe in the floor or place a series of blocks side by each such that you can see daylight all the way through. Make the whole sub floor out of them. Pour a couple three or four inches of concrete on top to bond everything together and provide a good smooth floor. Lets say the blocks are laying long ways N-S so the chanels run E-W. At the east and west ends you make a manifold to connect all the passages together. Now you pass the combustion products through the floor, heating it. Combustion chamber needs to be low and you need a stack on the output end to help produce "draw". If the combustion chamber is well thought out you should be able to burn shredded junk mail. Not enough junk mail? Well, it sure is easy to fix that. Put in a row of mailboxes (15-20 should be enough) tilted up at a 30 degree angle with a chute out the back like an enclosed laundry chute, all feeding into a collection box. Get addresses for all of them xxx-1, xxx-2, etc. Subscribe to all the junk mail. Get a heavy duty paper shredder to process the mail. Likely it could be automated. An auger feed based on the pellet stove could be thermostatically controlled for convenience. I don't think construction costs would be a big deal and it should reduce the heating bill a lot. This could go off grid with P-V to operate the auger and thermostat should you want more energy independence.

Oh yeah, use a catalytic afterburner to help ensure complete combustion and not put a bunch of gunk in the blocks. This is an adaptation of Roman style central apartment heat (from the time of the Ceasars) and a modern passive solar home design (several of which were built, instrumented, and worked quite well). The passive solar design uses a rectangular shape with lotsa glass on the south side. Sun heating the slab floor starts convection currents up out of the manifold nearest the sun with cool air falling down on the north side manifold. The air moves through the chanels in the floor and comes out at the south side again. In operation there is only a small temp diff from the north to the south side of the floor. A small fan can assist, especially at night when the delta T is reduced as the floor temp north to south equalizes. Properly insulated (double 2x4 stud walls with 8inches of f/g batts, cheap as a 2x6 wall but more efficient) there is little or no additional heat required unless there are long periods of heavy overcast.

Something in favor of hydronics is that as long as you can run the pump (a litle electricity, easily supplied by PV system) and have one or more heat sources (scrap wood burner with heat recovery, junk mail burner, pellet stove, gas boiler, solar water heater, whatever) you can heat the floor. The system doesn't care how it is heated, just that it is heated.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #16  
Patrickg

Actually, we didn't think of that /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif when I helped my buddy build his. I dont see why it wouldn't work. Am I right in assuming the firebox should be a little lower than the floor? Just to help the draw.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #17  
SHF said: Am I right in assuming the firebox should be a little lower than the floor?
Just to help the draw.

That is what I meant when I said,

"Combustion chamber needs to be low and you need a stack on the output end to help produce "draw"."

But as usual I didn't make it real clear. Once the whole system is drawing it isn't as important but like a syphon which it approximates, you have to get it started. A small blower to force a draft would be real helpful till the system got hot. I'd consider a multi-speed or better a variable speed blower and use it as required, probably pretty fast getting the system up and then throtle back.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #18  
Richard, Like the civil engineer guy said, Gex is just another way to get heat, how you deliver it is a whole different story. I am becoming an IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) concerned person. I am trying to design an essentially duct free or as duct free system as is practical and still meet my air change, filtration, dehumidification, cooling, and heating requirements. That gives me multiple reasons to favor in-floor hydronic heat. No ducts (breeding grounds for stuff I don't want to breathe) plus ducts are drafty, noisy, scatter dust, and have no aesthetic appeal. Going bare foot is more funner when the floor is warm in the winter.

Some folks put radiant heat part way up the walls but should stay below the "picture hanging zone" to avoid nailing into a tube. Worst location is the ceiling as was used in some electrically heated homes.

Best way to "GO GEOTHERMAL" varies. as does the answer to what is the best tool. If you have or will build a pond near the structure then a coil of PEX in the bottom of the pond can be real good. If you have an artesian well or plenty of cheap water you could go "open loop" and put well water through the heat exchanger then discharge the water, hopefully into a pond or series of ponds, irrigation system, or whatever (just wasting it bothers me). If you have the real estate and trenching isn't too hard, a long deep trench to bury PEX can be a good thing. Limited real estate? Drill a well just for placing heat exchanger loops of tubing. That just about exhausts the "standard" methods of installing the ground loop. Get out a sharp pencil (or spreadsheet software) and work out the highest SEER setup that will pay for itself over time in energy savings. Electricity is not likely to get cheaper over the installed life of your HVAC system.

The radiant part is prety cut and dried too. There are published design guidelines for in slab radiant, under wood floors, etc. An earth sheltered home builder's home/office that I toured last week was heated with in-slab hydronics
A N D he had regular carpet pads and carpeting. If you insulate under the floor a lot better than the pad and carpet insulate A N D you can supply the needed BTU's at the required elevated temp then it still works fine. Man's claim was that he too loved to go barefoot in the house in winter and the warm carpet felt delicious.

I like radiant heat because there are no ducts (good news) but the bad news is that there are no ducts...available for cooling and dehumidification in summer. Don't figure on radiant cooling unless you have to run a HUMIDIFIER in the summer because it gets too dry. Cooling a slab sufficiently to lower the radiant temperature as required for in-house comfort will put floor and any coverings below the dew point in temperature and will have condensation forming. Wet slab or floor coverings is a bad thing and will grow stuff you don't want.

Consider fan coil units charged with chilled water from the geothermal heatpump. I suggest variable speed blowers on these so that when you need dehumidification more that max cooling you can slow the air handlers down to increase dehumidification while reducing total BTU's removed. Also check into installing heat pipes with the fan coils as an adjunct to dehumidification. Do net search on "heat pipe". Your looking for some outfit in Florida with an oriental gentleman as the principal. They have practical applications of the technology. Really boosts dehumidification and has no moving parts to wear out and consumes no electricity directly. I just checked your bio. Midwest mean high humidity so you should be interested in heat pipe dehumidification applications.

That's about it without writing a book. I am up way past my bedtime so I might not be functioning at peak efficiency, just typing what comes to mind.

Patrick (An honors graduate of the Christopher Columbus School of Touch Typing where you learn to look for, discover, and land on the keys...one at time!
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #19  
Patrickg

You're hit on probably the most important feature of radiant heat. Flexibility. The radiant tubes/radiators are merely the conductors and not the source of the heat. This is where the flexibilty comes in. The heat SOURCE can be virtually anything capable of providing enough hot water. (Some sources, such has electric water heaters may not do a great job or last a long time). It can be geothermal, a water heater, a gas or oil fired boiler, a wood or pellet fired boiler, solar, etc. This readily allows for a multi-fuel system. Adequate insulation and multi-fuel systems could be an important selling point at some time in the future.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #20  
SHF, Yet another trait we share, "preachin' to the choir".

After the design considerations for hydronic heat, there is still the cooling, dehumidification, ventilation/air changes, filtration dimension to the problem. Usually little or none of the equipment involved in the hydronic heat distribution is useful in the above air handling involved tasks as the air handler requirement is not a part of the equation with hydronics. That is why I am considering chilled water distribution to zone controlled fan coil units for cooling.
I have contacted a manufacturer of baseboard heating fan coil units designed to mount in the kickspace under cabinets and heat with circulated hot water. For a small one-time engineering charge for CAD documentation and extra cost of brazing in some condensate drain fittings and extra powder coat for water resistance (condensate) they will build units for me in low volume (onesies twosies or so where or so could be as many as 10 or more) This will allow me to use the same pumps and some of the same plumbing for cooling as for heating. Still I will nead a whole house ventilation system with a balanced heat recovery system for air changes and filtration.
I expect that my dehumidification requirements will exceed my cooling requirements so I will need to engineer in extra dehumidification so I don't waste a lot of expensive KWH chilling the house while trying to dehumidify. The house ends up cooler (at great expense) than you need just trying to dehumidify sufficiently. At RH levels at or below 50%, lots of little creatures don't reproduce very well if at all and many die in a fairly short time. Even if they live for a week or two (without reproducing) they will be history before long. Moderately low RH (40-50%), besides promoting better health, feels comfortably cool whilethe air temp is several degrees warmer than wold be required with higher RH levels.
Since most practical dehumidification mechanisations have been compressor/refrigerant systems there is often not that great a savings over just runing the AC. Well, there are now much more efficient mechanical dehumidifiers and a clever no-extra-electricity method. I am attracted to the no-extra-electricity method. This employs a special heat exchanger, actually two finned heat exchanger assemblies connected by heat pipes. "Brief" digression follows.

Tech note: Heat pipes are typically thin walled copper tubes lined inside with a material having good capilary action, wetted with a liquid solution, often proprietary, that vaporizes well at the operating temperature to be employed. I think ammonia in water was used at one time. This device "pipes" heat from one end to the other of the tube quite efficiently, much much more efficiently and quickly that just a copper tube or a copper rod. In brief,it functions thus: As heat energy is adsorbed at one end, the liquid in the inner lining at that end is vaporized. Molecules of vapor propogate toward the otherend, taking the absorbed heat of vaporization with them, at just under the speed of sound, around 700 mph. As these molecules arrive at the other end and contact its cool environment, they condense back to liquid giving up their heat of vaporization (heating that end of the tube). the liquid is transported back towards the original end where it started out by capilary action as that end is drier (liguid is being evaporated there, drying it) and away from the condensing end that is gaining liquid and its capilary material is being saturated as liquid condenses.
This action repeats continuously as long as heat is added to the one end and removed from the other. There isn't anything to wear out (molecules usually don't wear out due to repetitive evaporation and condensation or rain would have worn out all the water a long time ago.)
OK, an interesting parlor trick or AMAZING science fact but how does it dehumidify with no additional expenditure of electricity? 1. Bend the heat pipes into a U shape. 2. Put fins on both ends to increase surface area in contact with air. 3. put an air conditioner's evaporator (the finned coil that gets cold) in the middle of the U.
Air flows past the first side of the U into contact with the evaporator and is chilled (this is what air conditioners do). This cold air continues past the second side of the U. When this chilled air cools the second side of the U that initiates condensation of the material inside the heat pipe. The warmer air coming into the system past the first side of the U gives up heat to the vaporizing material inside the tube. This pre-chills the air coming into the evaporator which chills that air again (making for an accumulated delta T greater than if the heat pipe wasn't employed). The doubly chilled air sheds much of its water since dehumidification is a function of the delta T, bigger temp drop is more water condensed out. As the doubly chilled air passes over the second side of the U it is warmed up to about what it would have been if only the standard air conditioning was used, i.e. no heat pipes. There is no net gain or loss of heat energy but temporarily at the right moment the moist incoming air is chilled much lower than it would have been without the heat pipes, thus effecting greater dehumidification than with just the standard air conditioning approach.
As no additional electrical energy is used (ok there is a tiny bit more aerodynamic drag blowing air through the extra fins) yoiu get a bunch better dehumidification and the only cost is a one-time purchase of equipment that doesn't have conventional moving parts and doesn't wear out.
If you are really into the physics of this you know that I glossed over the topic of latent heat. Except for the heat generated by running the refer unit and the circulating fan there is no heat created or destroyed, no magic, just clever thermodynamic manipulation to derive a benefit. If you consider the total heat energy of the incoming air stream and account for the heat in the condensate being thrown away (or used to top off the pool since it is distilled water) and the SEER of the refer etc it all balances out. I think there is a great future for applications of heat pipes. I first saw them demonstrated at the Long Beach Convention Center in about 1972 at an electronic engineering conference/exposition. This technology was used in the F-111 swing wing fighter bomber to get heat out of internal electronic packages. There are small heat pipe systems currently being sold as coolers for high speed Pentium processors.

Patrick (Again, if you joined the Tractorbynet forum as no-credit or pass-fail, this is not on the quiz.)

P.S. If there are any serious/practical cooling and dehumidification schemes/suggestions that are compatible with hydronic heating equipment, please put me out of my misery and give me a clue.
 

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