Any experience with radiant heat?

   / Any experience with radiant heat? #21  
Patrickg

Unfortunately, there are no magic bullets that I'm aware of with cooling on a hydronic system. About the only thing I've read of is the standard "run cold water through the pipes" routine. I had wished that I would have hit an artesian at my place. Then I would have figured out a way to use it for cooling. I thought you were designing an earth contact/sheltered home? How much of the home are you planning to shelter? How humid is your locality? These factors will mess with your equations. If enough of the house is sheltered, you may not need a whole lot of cooling. Mine, without the insulation was running about 10 degrees cooler than outside. Since the insulation has gone in the temperature has held just about the same variance. The winter before last, I tracked the inside and outside temps and found the inside held a steady 6 degrees warmer, even with no insulation and the wind whipping through the eaves.

U shaped pipe? How big of a pipe do you need to dehumidify the whole house? Or would this be on a room by room basis?

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #22  
SHF, Run cold water through the pipes is BS about anywhere but the Sahara Desert. As you cool the floor or other surface down toward the dew point RH goes up and things start to grow, like mildew, various fungi. Do the math. If you have hot and humid summers yoiu will need the drop the temp down below the dewpoint to get sufficient cooling. That will make the cooled surface condense copious quantities of water. Not aesthetically pleasing, healthy, or safe. If you cooled the floors, walls, and ceilings you might make a good dent in your cooling load by reducing the radiant temperature of the in-house environment. Stand by... digression to a tech note follows...

Tech note: Radiant temperatures are important to human comfort. What are they, how does this stuff work? Heat, as we all learned in school, is transported in three ways:
1. Convection (air currents due to warmer air rising above cooler air since warm air is lighter - air in car parked in sun is hotter near roof than at floor)
2. Conduction (hotter things in contact with cooler things give up heat to the cooler things, your finger touches hot metal roof of car parked in sun - some heat goes into your finger, yoiur finger cools the roof, not heats it)
3. Radiation (Infrared radiation (like light but lower in freq/longer wavelength. The hotter the object the more infrared is radiated and the higher its energy and frequency) Every object in the universe that is above the temperature of absolute zero (which is even colder than, dare I say it, Minot ND) radiates energy even in a vacuum as no physical contact is required to transmit heat this way. Unless the object is so hot that its radiation is visible light or higher freqs yet, then the radiation is infrared (below red in frequency)
When on a winter night you stand near a picture window with the drapes open you feel a chill, almost like a draft even though there isn't any air leak. Why? Radiation! Your body radiates infrared in all directions all the time till the corpse cools. Similarly, everything in the word, in line of sight to you, radiates heat energy toward you. Your comfort is strongly effected by the net result. If you receive a lot more than you give out then you get hotter. If you transmit more than you receive you feel cooler than in previous example. As you walk around a comfortably warm room that has been heated for long enough to attain steady state (contents are not getting warmer, they are as warm as they will get at this thermostat setting) everything in the room is bathing you in infrared and you them. When you walk over to the window and look out on the sub zero night (even with no air leaks around the window) you feel a chill because suddenly a large part of the environment is not shining much infrared on you. The sub zero environment of the view outside the window is shining very little infrared on you but you are shining a bunch of infrared out the window. This is a big net loss and you feel cooled by it (because you are).
Similarly, in summer with a house full of warm air and warm walls and warm floors bathing you in infrared you feel warm, maybe too warm. Cooling the walls, floors, and ceilings (lowering their radiation temperature) will allow them to absorb infrared from you but not give as much back which makes you feel cooler(and really be cooler) even though the air and furniture is not cooled a bunch. Reducing the radiant temperature of your environment reduces the requirement to cool the air.

So, yes, you can put cool water through the radiant heat pipes and cool the floor but you can't cool it enough in most practical applications (especially in the midwest or southeast) to make someone comfortable without having gallons of condensation on the floor, in the rugs, etc. Cooling the walls and ceillings too reduces the delta T needed to make you feel and be more comfortable. Still this will likely not be enough and you will probably need some dehumidification as well.

This radiant stuff is why when you stand in the sun on a cold day it is not so bad until you walk into the shade and lose the radiant energy from the big fire inthe sky.

How big U shaped pipe? Actually there are several in a commercial heat pipe dehumidification heat exchanger thingy. they are not so large, maybe 9/16 inch in dia. but a bunch of them in parallel with fins on both parallel arms of the U. Commercial ones are sized to fit around te evaporator in a central air conditioner. For details, look up the heat pipe website the gentleman of oriental extraction entreprenure has. He has catalog showing several models. He sells air handlers with evap coils and heat pipes ready to install, charge, and use.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #23  
Patrickg

Any ideas on hair-to-air heat exchangers? I have a book that mentions them and suggests it is possible to build one. But the only units I have seen are high end stuff on This Old House. (And we KNOW that stuff is expensive. Boy, can those guys go over budget! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif).

The problem you are describing with cooling on a hydronic system is exactly what prompted me to go with a ducted system. Makes central air much easier. About the only thing I could think of was to set up something like a radiator with a fan behind it and blow air over the radiator while cold water was forced through. I've also heard of evaporative air conditioners, but, apparently they only work in low humidity environments which means they don't work here, so I've never gotten to see one.



SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #24  
<font color=blue>evaporative air conditioners . . . never gotten to see one</font color=blue>

SHF, that was the only kind of cooling we ever had until I was 19 years old./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif It's better than nothing, but certainly not comparable to refrigerated air. And now they make some rather large (and expensive) portable units on casters with a really big fan (instead of the squirrel cage that the home units have). I've found they're gaining popularity with the mechanics in the repair shops in central Texas.

Bird
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #25  
SHF, First let me apologize in advance for the following attempt at humor, you didn't have to set me up so well.

SHF asked: Any ideas on hair-to-air heat exchangers?

No, not really but I've seen a lot of AIR-TO-HAIR heat exchangers. We have a couple, they are really convenient in the winter when you would regret going outside after a shower without drying your hair.

Sorry, couldn't resist... Now then, to business.. YUP, air to air heat exchangers are at the heart of the balanced heat recovery ventilator I refered to a few posts back. They come in essentially two flavors, one is a strictly heat recovery unit that deals with sensible heat and the other works on humidity as well (also working with latent heat). This later version is more expensive but if you have significant humidity in the summer where you live and run AC and or dehumidifier then it is something to look into. AC and dehumidification is expensive/energy intensive. HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) with humidity handling is a way to get fresh air without throwing away the expensive cool dry air that you have generated.
I like to think of myself as something of a pretty fair DIY kinda guy, having made my living for an extended period of time as a consultant in general scientific applications in areas as diverse as using reversable heat pumps for hot and cold therapy on human patients (prototype testing was done on the San Diego Chargers football team), vacuum deposited anti-reflection coatings on aircraft instruments, portable battery operated arc welders, moving message signs, ultraviolet blood analysis machines, aircraft anti-collision strobe detector systems, encrypted radio communications devices, and on and on B U T I have no idea how I would be able to build an acceptable balanced HRV for less than buying a mass produced commercial unit. In the olden days I built kits. Electronic stuff, radios, computers, instruments, amplifiers A N D scratch built some fairly sophisticated stuff but typically and in general I made something like $0.05 per hour while assembling a kit and sometimes less while scratch building something. If the "something" hadn't been done before then it is called an invention, prototype, or both and might have meaningfull commercial significance. Somehow I think we are a bit late to jump into HRV technology and would be better off to buy rather than build. If however you think that an "Earthship" in its most complete form with water resource recycling etc, is the finest expression of architectural and environmental perfection yet created by the hand of man, then bless you my son but read no further, it wouldn't help you.
You have to have fresh air to be healthy and comfortable. Remanufacturing it is very costly so it is usually pulled in from out of doors. You have to throw away as much stale air (stale but expensively cooled and dehumidified (filtered too in many cases) as you introduce new air. If the outside air is hot and humid the expense of cooling and dehumidifying a stream of fresh air is not small compared to the cost of maintaining a cool dehumidified interior with no air changes. The trick is to change the air as much as you need but not get totally carried away A N D to not throw the cooling and dehumidification away with the stale air. The heat exchanger in the HRV efficiently cools the incoming stream using the cool in the outgoing air. Similarly the drier outgoing air is used to dry the incoming humid air (with little or no mixing of the two streams).
If the cooling and dehumidification loads are not trivial and there is a significant fresh air exchange rate then it is probably cheaper to run the HRV with humidity (latent heat) control than to cool and dehumidify the incoming air stream. Look for models with automatic defrosting for the winter time and for multi-speed if not variable speed (prefered) operation. You don't need to run it full bore when there are only two people in the house and they are sleeping but with a party going on you might want to crank it up.

Car radiator with cold water in it and a fan blowing through it???? I suppose if it were a radiator with brass tanks that could be polished or from an antique car and so forth it could be an interesting conversation piece. In a prev post I mentioned a kick space mounted fan coil hydronic unit for an under cabinet mounted heater that the mfg would modify for cooling by the addition of different pait and a drain for the condesate. That is essentially a radiator (air/water heat exchanger) with a fan. They would of course leave out their temperature control junk as I would cotrol it differently. These units would be distributed around the living spaces, mounted high in the walls where they will naturally intake some of the warmest air available and blow out cooled and dehumidified ait. One little detail is that there has to be a condensate drain line from each fan coil unit. This is essentially distilled water and could be discharged out doors instead of into the septic system. Anything that can go wrong, will, and at the worst possible moment so I would install a connector in the condensate line at each unit to permit "blowing out" the line. Over time, I would expect dust, bugs, etc to clog the drain so this "self defense" posture with the drain cleaner blow out provision should save a lot of grief.
Evaporative air conditioner/cooler. You sure know how to hurt a guy. I have one on the roof of my camper in addition to the regular mechanical refrigeration unit. It uses about 5-6 amps at 12 volts. Since in good sun I get 12-14 amps at 12 volts from PV on roof, I prefer to run it on sunshine than to run the propane generator to power the regular unit. Unfortunately, I have yet to find conditions anywhere in the midwest where there is simultaneoulsy enough sun to power the unit with rel humidity low enough for it to work.
AKA "swamp boxes" or "swamp coolers" they are essentially a fan blowing outside air through a wet "filter" pad. As water evaporates it absorbs heat (gets cooler) . It humidifies the air as well as cools it. Not what we need, more humidity around here in summer. In drier climes, say for instance Arid-zona or New Mexico where the relative humidity can be quite low while the air is very hot, they work well, cooling and humidifying for a fracton of the cost of "regular" mechanical AC.

Last coment on the build-buy decision. Do you fly commercial? I do. I'm a pilot. When I fly a gen aviation plane on a long x-country it is for the flying fun, the trip, not getting there. To get there expeditiously and economically with a serious amount of bagage, I go commercial. Much of the HVAC stuff is like that. I may do a lot of the design and the installation labor but it is unlikely that I will build much of the equipment. I also don't usually build my own nuts, bolts, or screws.

Patrick
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #26  
Richard,

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. There's been a lot of good info posted since then and I agree with most all of it.

To distill it down to pratical terms, you need to set some parameters and start narrowing down your options or you could go nuts. Is cooling a concern? Do you want radiant in-floor heat or not? What are you cost concerns? Initial conctruction and long-term operating costs.

Yes $50 dollars a month is a reasonable cost, depending on what kind of system you go with. Usually, the highest costs for HVAC systems are associated with the fuel for heating and the generation of the cold for A/C. With geothermal, both of these costs are negligible. Pretty much limited to a small electric circ. pump too circulate the water/antifreeze solution through the system.

The remaining costs are associated with moving air through duct work in forced air systems. If you go with only a radiant in-floor hydronic heating, the circ. pump would be your only costs.

This does leave you without a viable means of cooling in the Midwest. The ultimate cheapo to operate system would be ground-source hydronic combined with a swamp cooler. But as has been mentioned, swamp coolers do not work unless you have a lower relative humidity.

What we put in at a facility out here was a Ground Source Heat pump. This is a forced air system where the hot and the cold are provided for only the costs of the circ pump, and the rest of the costs are comparable to any other forced air HVAC system.

We trenched the geothermal lines since we had a large site. If you have the same luxury, and can do the trenching yourself w/ a backhoe, you can greatly reduce the initial construction costs. This works well as the rest of the system is industry standard, and accordingly fairly cost effective, simple construction.

Its been in two years with no problems.

Feel free to ask specific questions and I do my best.


Eric
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #27  
Patrickg

Do you know a brand name of the HRV so I can search the web?

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #28  
Bird,

I think its far too humid for the evaporative coolers to work well here. I was drywalling the new house yesterday and with the earth contact, we were nice and comfortable until the rain ended and the sun came out. Then, with the windows open it got muggy real quick /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif.

SHF
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #29  
UtahMule,

How big was the faciility that had the geothermal unit? Do you know what it cost to install? Is antifreeze in the ground pipes? Who was the supplier of the equipment? Did the installers have a problem with doing the work? Had they done it before?

I was looking at Trane's website and they have some sort of doohickey that allows you to supply/supplement the hot water system for the house through a geothermal unit.

I'm seriously considering a geothermal heat pump especially since I can dig the trench myself..

Any info would be very helpful....

Thanks....
Dan McCarty
 
   / Any experience with radiant heat? #30  
SHF, I can understand the evaporative cooler not working well in areas of high humidity. Of course, they used to be very popular in Oklahoma and Texas when refrigerated air was rare. Now you only rarely see homes cooled with them. In fact, when we were in Arizona about 10 years ago, I was really surprised to see how many of them were in use on homes. And one thing that surprised me even more was the number of nice homes that had both refrigerated air-conditioning and evaporative coolers. I'm only guessing that they used one or the other depending on the weather, instead of both at the same time, since one would be adding the humidity while the other was trying to reduce it.

Bird
 

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