Any F-550 owners or towers out there ?

[Builder]

The F450 is a class 4 truck.
The 4500 is a class 4 truck.
Same with the F550 and 5500 only class 5.

You can't get a Cummins or Cat in any of these class 4 or 5 trucks.
GM only offers the 6.6 Duramax in the 4500/5500 which is the same displacement as any 2500/3500, the 1000 series is the same tranny as 2500/3500, only in the 5500 you can get the 2200 series Allison.

They are in the same class, just built by different companys with a different look and mechanics.

But the 1000 series 6 speed is head and shoulders better than a Ford Torqshift 5 speed tranny. It's an Allison guys, the biggest medium/heavy auto trans builder in the world.

They don't just have a "different look". There truly is more truck: more steel, more strength, bigger tires, better visibility, a more proven diesel, better trans, bigger rears and a much better cab. All those upgrades for a similar price.

It's more than just looks.

I'd actually even take a 4500 over an F-550 just to get the better trans, more proven diesel, better cab, bigger tires.

The 450/550 are just beefed-up pickups. The 4500/5500 share less in common with the 2500/3500. They are a more medium duty design, but can fit in most any place a lighter-duty 450/550 can!!!

 

[Builder]

Come one Builder If all of this is true - why is it that the Ford F 450/550 series are seen as the dominant brand of choice for landscapers and others? Do you think the GMC sells as much as the F450/550 in qty? I dont think so Besides you should be comparing the F650 to these models from GMC. ...anyway I see this as another Ford vs Chevy thread - enjoy !

Neither of us really know because we don't have sales figures. I can tell you that my local McDonalds store sells more cheeseburgers than my local deli in the same shopping center, but the local deli chesseburgers are a heck of a lot better!

Sales numbers don't mean everything!

The GMC 6500/7500 are GMC's competition to the F650/750.

The 4500/5500 were designed specifically to beat the 450/550.

 

[ducati996]

Neither of us really know because we don't have sales figures. I can tell you that my local McDonalds store sells more cheeseburgers than my local deli in the same shopping center, but the local deli chesseburgers are a heck of a lot better!

Sales numbers don't mean everything!

The GMC 6500/7500 are GMC's competition to the F650/750.

The 4500/5500 were designed specifically to beat the 450/550.

What are the price points for the 4500/5500? as I recall they were more $$ than my F550, and it was closer to the F650 in price but not in specs. Comparing two similarily equiped trucks rated for 19,000 lbs, dump bed 11 ft, 4x4, diesel. I still think its the F650 that needs to be compared, but maybe you are right and the 4500 is priced in the F550 area.

 

[john_bud]

atgreene,

I think we have collectively decided the 550 is not the better choice for our original poster. I do think, though, the if the heavier-duty Ford trucks are coming with the 6.4L diesel the power question is a wash. The frame I do not know about, but I know Ford has done suspension and steering upgrades to their truck since 2005. When Builder wrote his original response he was comparing his 1999 550 dumper to a newer 4500 or 5500 GM mid duty. I sold my Banks-equipped 7.3L 250 earlier this year and got a new 2008 6.4L. My old 2002 250 was straight line faster due to its heavily modified engine, but comparing it to my new one in ride, pulling efficiency, handling and turning radius, there truly is no comparison. The new truck blows my old one totally out of the water in this area. It also handles and steers much better than any pre 2007 heavy duty pickup from Ford. My point here is that Ford has greatly improved many things on their lighter duty trucks and I assume they have done so on the heavy duty models also. The other question I have is it seems the 4500 and 5500's are really more in competition with the F650 Ford, not the F550. I do not know if this is a numbering issue solely but to some degree we are comparing and apple to an orange. For heavy hauling, etc., I too feel a 4500 or 5500 GM truck would be a better choice as I have never been enthused about the F550 Ford. But, in lighter duty trucks.....well that might be a different story. Just like we would all collectively do with someone buying a tractor or other piece of equipment, I would encourage our original poster to see if a dealership would have a salesperson bring a truck out and let him drive it and check it out--as much as allowed. Many dealerships do this for commericial purchasers because they want repeat business from them. Perhaps he could check into this also.

John M

John, You sound like a very dyed in the wool Ford Fan. I used to be that way, until Ford's urine poor quality rubbed my nose in it. Have gone to buying what works best for the aplications and have removed my emotional attachment to the manufacturor. (Just like they have removed any emotional attachment to us, the customers.)

jb


FYI,
In addition to the Chevy Duramax truck and the wife's Olds car in the garage,

1968 Cougar GT-E factory 427 cid side oiler
1973 Cougar convertible - 351 C 4V, AOD, 9" 28 spline limited slip
1977 mustang II - 350 hp 302, built C4 8" 3.55:1 limited slip, 205x50-15 and 225x50-15's on centerlines
2 Ford tractors with ford FEL's and backhoes.

Numerous other Ford vehicles have come and gone and I have rebuilt many many many ford engines, so I do know a fair bit about them.

 

[machmeter62]

John, You sound like a very dyed in the wool Ford Fan. I used to be that way, until Ford's urine poor quality rubbed my nose in it. Have gone to buying what works best for the aplications and have removed my emotional attachment to the manufacturor. (Just like they have removed any emotional attachment to us, the customers.)

jb


FYI,
In addition to the Chevy Duramax truck and the wife's Olds car in the garage,

1968 Cougar GT-E factory 427 cid side oiler
1973 Cougar convertible - 351 C 4V, AOD, 9" 28 spline limited slip
1977 mustang II - 350 hp 302, built C4 8" 3.55:1 limited slip, 205x50-15 and 225x50-15's on centerlines
2 Ford tractors with ford FEL's and backhoes.

Numerous other Ford vehicles have come and gone and I have rebuilt many many many ford engines, so I do know a fair bit about them.

Unless the newer generation of Ford trucks has addressed their weak frame strength; the frame flexing is their biggest draw-back at max GVW, and the turning radius on my '92 4x4 is a (PITA) too?

"JB"--I like your car collection; however, the term "side-oiler" is new to me on the '68 with the 427 engine?

 

[jcmseven]

JohnBud,

The Ford products now--at least in pickups--are really nice. I looked at them all before buying and went back with Ford. The frame is great and the powertrain is quite good. The quality is really up there. That said, if I were our poster I would go with the 4500/5500 truck myself in THAT truck line. I have had some concerns with the thread, though. First, comparing a 1999 and 2005 model 550 which have been owned by two of our responders to a new 5500 GM offering is not really fair--Ford has improved a lot since then. Second, the implication that the Allison transmission and Duramax are somehow better the the equivalent Ford combination I believe to not necessarily be true. I see the main advantage of the Allison tranny being one extra gear--which I like--but otherwise that seems--as I mentioned--a wash. The third, and final concern, is the characterizing of the Ford product as "junk" or somehow inferior. Perhaps--and I agree with this--it is not the better choice here, but I do think Ford has improved many of the areas of concern on their product. I own a Ford, but would have loved to own something else myself as I like venturing out some. Here, I would go GM, but the implication in the thread that somehow millions of 550 users are either stupid or somehow hoodwinked into buying a Ford product bothers me some.

John M

 

[jcmseven]

Builder,

As usual, I think you have given our original poster sound advice based on your experience. I respect your opinion and your expertise on this topic. I 100% agree with you that the GM 4500/5500 is the preferred option here for most of the reasons you mention. I do not feel GM has the "superior powertrain" anymore. It does have a slight edge with the additional gear on the Allison but can you sight more specifics on this?? Thanks.

John M

 

[john_bud]

Machmeter,

Thanks. The term "side oiler" is in reference to the priority oiling given to the main bearings with a dedicated oil gallery along the side of the block. This is more expensive than the usual "top oiler" where the main oil gallery is in the block above the camshaft, where the oil is equally shared between the lifters and the crank. The 427 engines changed from top oiler to side oiler in the early 60's, when they failed to live at 7000 rpm's at the 24 hour races and the longer tracks in the south. All other ford FE blocks are top oiler including the 428 CJ. Other engine families like the Windsor (255, 260,289, 302, 351), Cleveland (351C, 351M, 400M) and Lima (429 & 460) are also top oilers.

Jcmseven, I re-read my post. I didn't use the term "junk". So, I am guessing you were referring to another post and not mine? I am also sure that Ford's quality is better than my last truck's. (wouldn't be hard!) But, the black eye they have from the 6.0L diesel is pretty bad right now. The 6.4L seems to be better, but it has nearly universally reported horrible fuel economy. Many posters on the ford forum Thedieselstop.com have posted equal or lower economy to the V10 gas. 10-14 empty and 6-8 towing. That's much worse than the equivalent new Dodge and the latest GM diesels. So, it isn't just due to the addition of the new pollution controls. The engine has only been on the market for less than a year. Far too new to know much about long term quality or even design weaknesses. Many people have a jaundiced eye to-ward's the ford now due to the very poor reputation of the 6.0L. Hopefully, they have gotten this one right as I don't think they will be able to stand the competition from GM, Dodge much less Honda & Toyota. H &T are reputed to be introducing 3/4 and 1 ton full sized diesel trucks in the next few years. Probably 2010 or 2011, after the latest pollution standards are in place. It will be interesting times in the full size work truck arena!

jb

 

[Reg]

As a previous poster said, GM Duramax and Allison is more proven.

For those who are license limited to 26,000 Total, I think the 12K 1 ton offers the best balance of tow & haul, i.e. 12K (minus 1) for the truck & 14K (minus 1) for the trailer. After that, its just a matter of MONEY.

 

[Builder]

Builder,

As usual, I think you have given our original poster sound advice based on your experience. I respect your opinion and your expertise on this topic. I 100% agree with you that the GM 4500/5500 is the preferred option here for most of the reasons you mention. I do not feel GM has the "superior powertrain" anymore. It does have a slight edge with the additional gear on the Allison but can you sight more specifics on this?? Thanks.

John M

Thanks for the compliment, but by your comparison, I can tell you haven't driven an Allison equipped vehicle.

If you had, you would have seen a few years back, Allison transmissions were also equipped with a "tap- up/tap-down" manual shift feature.
It works like this: You pull the shifter stalk into the "manual" mode. On your gear selector readout on the dash appears numerals 1,2,3,4,5,6. The gear you are currently in is highlighted. There is a paddle switch on the shifter stalk that allows the driver to manually shift the truck with your thumb, with the tap of a very slick rocker switch, into any of the 6 available gears he wants. In essence turning the Allison six speed auto into an Allison 6-speed manual transmission.

The Ford Torqshift 5 speed auto trans does not offer this feature.

Also, check out the gear ratios on the Reverse gear on the Allison v the Torqshift. The Allison is much lower geared.

Also, have you ever compared both transmissions on a bench at a trans shop? I have. The Allison is about 30% bigger. It has a MUCH bigger tailshaft. The input shaft is also MUCH bigger than the Ford input shaft. That is where the power goes in from the flywheel and the power goes out to the driveshaft. Many of the internal components are bigger & more robust than the Ford components.

You can't really believe the Ford built transmission is going to exceed the quality of an Allison transmission, can you? You do know Allison builds the transmission for the M-1 Abrahms tank, not to mention several other military vehicles, right?

I wouldn't be telling you this if I hadn't compared them myself. I was a Ford fanatic, then one day I saw the light. GM is a better built truck.

I'm not a big GM guy. In fact, I used to be really loyal to Ford and disliked a lot of things about GM. However, I think GM has really turned things around and has passed Ford in so many ways that I no longer can support Ford with my hard earned money.