Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[hutchman]

I'm really not buying this "Diesel costs more to operate" line of thinking.

Again, every case is different but for me all I really have to change on my car is the timing belt every 100K miles. I also change everything that touches the belt (which dealers won't do). I don't have to buy a bunch of O2 sensors that wear out and make the MPG's go down, plugs or plug wires that also lose efficiency etc. My factory oil change interval is 10K miles. I use synthetic oil that is more expensive but today's gassers use it too to game EPA/MPG and no gasser that I'm aware of will let you do a 10K OCI ... so oil changes are a wash if not cheaper for the diesel in some cases. I have bypass oil filters on all my TDI's and on my 2002 I can do extended OCI's that run well over 10K miles. Plus, all that needs to happen to the car I do myself (I have the manuals & tools). My car has not been back to the dealer since it was new. TDIClub and VCDS on a laptop is all I need to keep it going and that's the way I like to roll.

Now if you are the type that takes your car back to the dealer where you bought it for service ... you are going to get hurt no matter if it is gas or diesel.

 

[hutchman]

.... HD operators aren't "forced" to used diesel, they use it because it's the best tool for the job.

There is a reason the military, trucking and delivery industry, ships, heavy machinery etc. use it. More power, more economical, less maintenance, safer (not as volatile in an accident or spill) etc.

Another reason Diesel is more expensive is because it is taxed more than gas. We have some idiot lawmakers for sure. Lets put E10 in gas which messes up fuel systems, shorten the shelf life, reduces the BTU output, have gas compete with food but tax to death that EVIL diesel (that puts out less Co2 than gas ... but not other things but they weren't focused on that stuff back then) and charge people more for less MPG's. Yea, that's a genius idea!

Diesel acceptance in passenger autos in this country has been a VHS vs Beta kind of thing. The best idea doesn't always win. And you can see by last weeks announcement by the congress that we're broke with no solution in sight that we have a lot of sheeple that just go along with whatever.

 

[buickanddeere]

A direct injected gas engine is going to cost just as much if not more than a diesel powerplant, not including tons of fragile electronics that do not belong on a tractor.

What ? No electronics on a Tier IV farm, industrial or highway diesel ? A DI gasser in a ATV, RTV , pickup or Chevy Cruze costs how many thousand less than the diesel version? Is there glow plugs, a particulate filter , urea injection or a two battery starting system on a gasser? I already stated all those facts in a previous post, did you forget?

 

[aczlan]

show me a Prius that is as old as my 2002 or has as many miles on it that still gets the MPG's it did when it left the lot (I know there are "Consumer Reports" that say they are reliable 10+ years old but personal experience says different). My car is fun to drive (way more so than a Prius), very safe crash rating (it is not a light car at all). Bottom line is it delivers in more areas than just MPG so it is my 'personal preference' I'm voicing here.

I know someone who has a first generation Prius (he bought it the first year they came here, so a 2004?) with over 250k miles (probably pushing 300k miles by now). It has had 2 sets of brakes, regular oil changes and a couple of recalls (something related to the steering column IIRC).
It still gets high 40s on the highway and better around town.

Aaron Z

 

[hutchman]

What ? No electronics on a Tier IV farm, industrial or highway diesel ? A DI gasser in a ATV, RTV , pickup or Chevy Cruze costs how many thousand less than the diesel version? Is there glow plugs, a particulate filter , urea injection or a two battery starting system on a gasser? I already stated all those facts in a previous post, did you forget?

Some electronics yes. There are a bunch of ways to meet Tier IV. Does not meant a full blown ECU with all the associated sensors.

The diesel "premium" is mostly marketing hog wash. Dealers know people will pay more money for a vehicle that gets better MPG because the people that pick them over the gas model do so for a reason so they capitalize on it.

Plus it's a supply and demand thing. I can sell my car as old as it is and with as many miles as it has for quite a bit too .... again supply and demand.

None of my diesels have all that stuff you mentioned and I won't have any in the future if I can help it.

 

[hutchman]

I know someone who has a first generation Prius (he bought it the first year they came here, so a 2004?) with over 250k miles (probably pushing 300k miles by now). It has had 2 sets of brakes, regular oil changes and a couple of recalls (something related to the steering column IIRC).
It still gets high 40s on the highway and better around town.

Aaron Z

There are some, I acknowledge that. But I've also seen plenty with major problems. I haven't seen many keep them real long. They came out in 2001, 2002 if memory serves me right.

The MPG on my 2002 increased from new. The guru's say they aren't broke in developing their peak compression until they hit around 60K miles. I've had two now and have observed the MPGs increasing so I believe it.

 

[buickanddeere]

Google diesel vs Otto cycle. You can skip the calculations and go through the graphs. And the law hasn't changed - ftorque = force times lever arm. Where an Otto cycle engine has peak force the lever arm is zero so at infinite combustion pressure torque is still zero. Diesel cycle maintains that force throughout the first 90 degrees of crank throw so where a gas engine falls on its butt, the diesel is still grunting. And it's why Ram is advertising how it whoops Ford's Eco-boost and why Motoro Trend gave its Truck of the year to somebody other than the new Ford - because Ford's changes were made to improve fuel economy and it still loses to a diesel.

It's not combustion occurring at 90degrees crank angle that makes torque. It's the higher peak combustion chamber pressure over compression pressure that makes torque.
If you would compare apples to apples with a 4020 gas and a 4020 diesel . Where are the differces in rpm, torque and HP? There is little to none, in fact the gasser may perform slightly better.
The traditional diesel was by default a low rpm engine due to the short duration cam timing. Otherwise it would not start due to low cylinder pressure and thus low cylinder temperature.
Short cam timing is fine for 1000-2200rpm operation but it falls flat on it's face at higher rpms.
The gasoline engine can have the cam ground for more duration and improved airflow, this power at higher rpms.
Of course now with double over head cams with independent timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. The torque curve is now flattened instead of a sharp peak.
The gasser and even the diesel at part load ****** the intake cam so some of the combustion chamber air is pushed out. It gives a gasser a 3 or 4 to 1 compression ratio for less pumping and heating losses. Yet maintains the 12 to 1 expansion ratio on the power stroke.
The diesel when "throttled" with reduced intake charge improves it's part throttle thermal efficiency by not pumping unused cold air through the engine.
The diesel and gasser both benefit from wider power bands. Where do you think both engines gained the low speed torque and high rpm HP? The fiat diesel in the Dodge , Cruze and Canyon revs to 3800rpm to make peak HP.
Having actual flame and combustion with 90degrees crank angle is a waste of fuel and just adds heat to the cooling system through the cylinder walls.
The most effective use of fuel is by having peak combustion chamber pressure at and just after TDC. Why do you think spark advance is used ahead of TDC ? Back the timing off 20 degrees on any gas or diesel and the engine will loose power.
Depending on compression ratio, combustion chamber shape and fuel.flame propagation in a combustion chamber varies from 33 to 82ft per second . Hence the need to have combustion take place when the combustion chamber is smallest.

 

[hutchman]

... now that I'm at a real keyboard I'll elaborate a little more on the "Diesel Premium". Until very recently, there were 5 or so CARB states where vehicles like the VW TDI couldn't be sold new because they didn't meet the States emission requirements (I won't say what I call those states). So people in the states that could by them would get them and keep them for a year or two and sell them for as much or more than they paid for them to someone in a CARB state (used ones that had a certain mileage or age were allowed ... can't remember the details) that needed something that got 50MPG. There were a few years where no new model TDI was offered which further fueled the demand and Katrina hitting during that same time didn't help things much.

I cannot give any numbers on how much the "Premium" is from supply/demand and economy of scale. Maybe an auto mfr. is on here and can spill the beans. But again, because of our wonderful lawmakers, dealers were only allowed to import so many diesels (like 3-4% of gasser models). So dealers had quota's of that pool too. Example: I bought my 2006 in fall of 2005. Katrina was driving gas prices through the roof. I was activated in the states (Operation Noble Eagle) and I either had to stay on post or drive 1-1/2 hr one way to work (3+hrs a day). My vehicles at the time got in the mid 20's so it was killing me. Driving back and forth was on my own dime so I decided to buy a TDI. My dealer had two on the lot and people were basically fighting over them. In fact, as we were signing the papers, I saw a dealer take a family out for a test drive in the car I just bought!

There are some gassers that have this same problem too. You'll have the "sticker" price and then the "market" price. There are some vehicles due to their demand that will have a "market" price above the MSRP "sticker" price.

 

[buickanddeere]

Un

I think you would notice if you drove one of my cars. My 2002 VW TDI is 90HP stock. I can set the cruise control on 70MPH and the speedo needle will not budge going up Sandstone Mountain on I-64 in WV. It's a 5 speed and I don't have to gear down. No other vehicle I've driven on that mountain will do that.

As said before, Diesel makes its power at the low end. My car redlines at 4,500 RPM while a Mazda Rx8 is just coming alive at 9,000 RPM.

$300 extra in fuel? I think your cost per BTU measure is more theoretical. I use actual cost per mile to do my comparisons. None of my gassers can do 50+MPG so operating my TDI's costs several cents per mile less than my gassers. Diesel fuel price would have to go way, way up before gas was less per mile. Yes, I could drive a Prius or something to come close or maybe even do a tiny better in some cases but then other factors start to come into play .... show me a Prius that is as old as my 2002 or has as many miles on it that still gets the MPG's it did when it left the lot (I know there are "Consumer Reports" that say they are reliable 10+ years old but personal experience says different). My car is fun to drive (way more so than a Prius), very safe crash rating (it is not a light car at all). Bottom line is it delivers in more areas than just MPG so it is my 'personal preference' I'm voicing here.

Diesel is the Apocalypse engine. WWII the Army used multi-fuel engines. I can run my stuff off D2, D1+D2, BioDiesel, SVO, WVO etc. As has also been mentioned, today's gasoline just doesn't have the shelf life (even with additives) of diesel straight from the pump much less diesel with added additives. Most on here have tanks where they store large quantities of fuel long term. Sits for years ... no problem. I don't think gas can even come close to doing that anymore. When the power goes out and you need to run a big generator head via tractor PTO these fuel stores matter.

The engines you are describing are basically copies of what's in autos/trucks today. Would require ECU, MAF, O2 sensors, EGR, Fuel Temp sensor's, Gas vapor reclaiming systems, and on and on, OBD2 to trouble shoot etc.. No way I want all that stuff on my tractor. I balked at Tier IV, no way would I go more complicated and that's what we're talking about here. I only have so much life left ... I'll bide my time with non DPF diesels. I want something that is reliable that I can work on myself and make it last. I'll keep my simple diesel engines.

Those " DI gasoline " electronics you dread are every bit as much or more abundant on the Tier IV diesel.
As for being able to burn anything. One could distill ethanol and operate a DI gas. For anybody pouring salvage fuel into a 30,000psi common rail injection diesel system. It's going to be finiky.
For light highway vehicles. I was never alarmed if it down shifted to climb a hill.
The diesel Cruze vs gas Cruze was quoted from official EPA tests which I trust more than here say evidence.
The same site with figures published before gasoline prices fell and diesel stayed high was $1200 a year to drive a diesel Golf and $1050 to drive a gas Golf.
Before even paying the cost of the Golf's diesel option. Where are you saving $ with diesel? Let's hope she never needs glow plugs or injectors past warranty .

 

[MossRoad]

How do you like the Impala? Other than the fuel moisture sensor

Edit,
Was thinking the new model came out in 2013. Looks like it was 2014.

2011, 2012 and 2013 only came with one engine option, regardless of trim package. 3.6l aluminum V6 with variable valve timing, GDI, double overhead cam, 300hp @6500 rpm, 262ft lb torque around 5300rpm. 6sp tranny. It has just about the best power to weight ratio in its class. Goes in a straight line like a rocket up to 140+. That said, its a cheap plastic car with lousy brakes! :laughing:

I liked our 2000 Impala body style and interior much better. But this car is way quicker. Cheap, cheap fun.

The 2014 is a much different animal, very nice interior and actually a nice car. What's kind of confusing is you can still get the 2013 body style until 2015, its called the something like the fleet model for cops and cabs, etc...