Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[hutchman]

... The greater btu per dollar in gasoline and the lower vehicle/machine price makes the DI gas is the winner .
Manufactures sell where they can make money. As the highway vehicle, boat, snowmobile , motor cycle , ATV , RTV and small equipment purchasers want economical power. ...

Dang ... I said I wasn't going to respond to you anymore ...

GDI Gassers are stealing the efficiency of diesel technology to get their gains. No real innovation there, diesel's been doing DI for a long time.

GDI particulate matter is worse and more dangerous than diesel. They are getting away with it now because EPA specs never had a particulate size spec for gassoline but the music stops in 2017. For GDI's to meet specs then (and tightening afterwards) the cost of the gassoline engine will increase (it has to, their's no way around it ... higer compression=more expensive parts, high pressure fuel pumps, plus all the computers and senors required) and there won't be a gap (or much of one) between the cost of gas/diesel engines anymore.

Also, the new trend is to have dual ignition modes like PFI/GDI or HCCI/GDI. HCCI only has 75% of the power of a non-HCCI engine so power goes down. You have to get really creative combining these technologies to get the efficiency of TODAY's diesel ... never mind addressing the power issue. So yes, the efficiency gap is closing if you compare GDI to today's diesel ... but diesel mfr's aren't resting on their laurels. New diesel tech gains aren't gigantic like going from PFI to DI but they are enough to keep ahead of gassoline. Diesel mfr's have been perfecting all these systems (since 2007) the GDI is just now getting around to stealing (EGR coolers, high pressure fuel pumps, particulate filters, piezo electric multiple injections per stroke, liquid inter coolers etc.) so they are going to have their share of growing pains adopting the technology just like the diesels went through (high pressure fuel pump failures - expensive!, turbo failures, expensive particulate system failures - EGR coolers failing).

If you balk at Tier IV diesel, you really aren't going to like the 2 headded monster of the multiple injection systems coming to gas engines ... using one method for cold or low load use then switching to another method to deal with at temp/high loads.

 

[hutchman]

Take a couple of minutes and read about the Otto Cycle, combustion and efficiency.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer10_johansson.pdf

You do realize that the Diesel from Rudolph Diesel was the answer to the inefficiencies of the Otto? HCCI is still diesel technology ... just the fuel is different so if you are now a HCCI fan, does that mean you've finally come over to the dark side and acknowledged the superior diesel design?

Hey, if you can't beat them, join them - right?

 

[buickanddeere]

Dang ... I said I wasn't going to respond to you anymore ...

GDI Gassers are stealing the efficiency of diesel technology to get their gains. No real innovation there, diesel's been doing DI for a long time.

GDI particulate matter is worse and more dangerous than diesel. They are getting away with it now because EPA specs never had a particulate size spec for gassoline but the music stops in 2017. For GDI's to meet specs then (and tightening afterwards) the cost of the gassoline engine will increase (it has to, their's no way around it ... higer compression=more expensive parts, high pressure fuel pumps, plus all the computers and senors required) and there won't be a gap (or much of one) between the cost of gas/diesel engines anymore.

Also, the new trend is to have dual ignition modes like PFI/GDI or HCCI/GDI. HCCI only has 75% of the power of a non-HCCI engine so power goes down. You have to get really creative combining these technologies to get the efficiency of TODAY's diesel ... never mind addressing the power issue. So yes, the efficiency gap is closing if you compare GDI to today's diesel ... but diesel mfr's aren't resting on their laurels. New diesel tech gains aren't gigantic like going from PFI to DI but they are enough to keep ahead of gassoline. Diesel mfr's have been perfecting all these systems (since 2007) the GDI is just now getting around to stealing (EGR coolers, high pressure fuel pumps, particulate filters, piezo electric multiple injections per stroke, liquid inter coolers etc.) so they are going to have their share of growing pains adopting the technology just like the diesels went through (high pressure fuel pump failures - expensive!, turbo failures, expensive particulate system failures - EGR coolers failing).

If you balk at Tier IV diesel, you really aren't going to like the 2 headded monster of the multiple injection systems coming to gas engines ... using one method for cold or low load use then switching to another method to deal with at temp/high loads.

The DI gas varies cam timing and does not use an EGR valve or cooler. The 3000 psi system is less problematic than a 30,000psi diesel system. The DI gas no matter which mode uses the same combustion chamber injector . With the fuel injection event either just before TDC, during the compression stroke or combined with injection during compression to just below an LEL air fuel ratio then the remaining fuel just prior to TDC. Gas DI engijes are lower in weight than diesels as compression pressure and combustion pressures are lower than diesel. The extra efficiency the gas has is the larger ratio between compression and combustion pressure . The gas doesn't have cold start problems and glow plugs. Only a few have turbos. The particulate from DI gas is simpler and cheaper to filter out .
Still remains the DI gas extracts as high or higher % of thermal energy into crankshaft power than the diesel. While burning fuel that costs less per btu of energy . DI gas With a lower up front cost and lower after warranty emissions repair costs.

 

[buickanddeere]

Dang ... I said I wasn't going to respond to you anymore ...

GDI Gassers are stealing the efficiency of diesel technology to get their gains. No real innovation there, diesel's been doing DI for a long time.

GDI particulate matter is worse and more dangerous than diesel. They are getting away with it now because EPA specs never had a particulate size spec for gassoline but the music stops in 2017. For GDI's to meet specs then (and tightening afterwards) the cost of the gassoline engine will increase (it has to, their's no way around it ... higer compression=more expensive parts, high pressure fuel pumps, plus all the computers and senors required) and there won't be a gap (or much of one) between the cost of gas/diesel engines anymore.

Also, the new trend is to have dual ignition modes like PFI/GDI or HCCI/GDI. HCCI only has 75% of the power of a non-HCCI engine so power goes down. You have to get really creative combining these technologies to get the efficiency of TODAY's diesel ... never mind addressing the power issue. So yes, the efficiency gap is closing if you compare GDI to today's diesel ... but diesel mfr's aren't resting on their laurels. New diesel tech gains aren't gigantic like going from PFI to DI but they are enough to keep ahead of gassoline. Diesel mfr's have been perfecting all these systems (since 2007) the GDI is just now getting around to stealing (EGR coolers, high pressure fuel pumps, particulate filters, piezo electric multiple injections per stroke, liquid inter coolers etc.) so they are going to have their share of growing pains adopting the technology just like the diesels went through (high pressure fuel pump failures - expensive!, turbo failures, expensive particulate system failures - EGR coolers failing).

If you balk at Tier IV diesel, you really aren't going to like the 2 headded monster of the multiple injection systems coming to gas engines ... using one method for cold or low load use then switching to another method to deal with at temp/high loads.

The DI gas varies cam timing and does not use an EGR valve or cooler. The 3000 psi system is less problematic than a 30,000psi diesel system. The DI gas no matter which mode uses the same combustion chamber injector . With the fuel injection event either just before TDC, during the compression stroke or combined with injection during compression to just below an LEL air fuel ratio then the remaining fuel just prior to TDC. Gas DI engijes are lower in weight than diesels as compression pressure and combustion pressures are lower than diesel. The extra efficiency the gas has is the larger ratio between compression and combustion pressure . The gas doesn't have cold start problems and glow plugs. Only a few have turbos. The particulate from DI gas is simpler and cheaper to filter out .
Still remains the DI gas extracts as high or higher % of thermal energy into crankshaft power than the diesel. While burning fuel that costs less per btu of energy . DI gas With a lower up front cost and lower after warranty emissions repair costs.

 

[sd455dan]

You do realize that the Diesel from Rudolph Diesel was the answer to the inefficiencies of the Otto? HCCI is still diesel technology ... just the fuel is different so if you are now a HCCI fan, does that mean you've finally come over to the dark side and acknowledged the superior diesel design?

Hey, if you can't beat them, join them - right?

great points-
i have been wondering about high pressure gas injection pump and injector reliability versus diesel once they really crank up the pressure on the gas units.
Diesel does seem to have superior lubricating qualities compared to gas and yet some pump failures do happen-guessing gas will be worse?

 

[hutchman]

The DI gas varies cam timing and does not use an EGR valve or cooler.

Today they don't. What about in 2017? You don't want to talk about the past and you don't want to acknowledge the future. Dealing with PM on gas engines is same as Diesel ... make engine smaller (then you're going to need a trubo), use tuining (computer - high pressure fuel system), higher compression - well there goes the majority of your equipment cost savings, EGR cooler, and some flavor of particulate filter. This is the menu to pick from. Not all engines will have all these but ALL will have some of these! Mark my word.

Gas DI engijes are lower in weight than diesels as compression pressure and combustion pressures are lower than diesel.

Maybe true at this second but again what about 2017?

The gas doesn't have cold start problems ...

... buts that's where enough of the super bad particulate matter comes from that another injection method is used.

Green Car Congress: Nissan Introduces New Dual Injector System for Improved Fuel Efficiency in Small-Displacement PFI Engines
Green Car Congress: Audi using supplementary port fuel injection to address particulates from gasoline direct injection

DI gas With a lower up front cost and lower after warranty emissions repair costs.

... you're living in a dream world and cannot be helped.

There is no free lunch. Once EPA starts putting PM screws to gasoline like diesel we'll start to see the real story. If history repeats itself, the gas engine will have about 7-8 years of growing pains and folks will yearn for the simple days of the gas engine.

 

[GManBart]

Looking at the mileage of the same vehicle with a DI gas vs a diesel. The thermal efficiency must be similar between DI gas and diesel. As the diesel barely makes the 13% greater mileage it should with diesel's greater btu per gallon.
You are mixed up in your numbers between percent differnce btu per gallon and percent combustion efficnecy .
Since we operate the vehicle on cost per mile. The greater btu per dollar in gasoline and the lower vehicle/machine price makes the DI gas is the winner .

The two engines in the same vehicle make different amounts of power, and different amounts of torque, so it's another one of your apples-to-oranges comparisons. To make a valid comparison of efficiency you'd need the two engines to create similar max power and torque figures, and see which would do that with less fuel per mile (hint, it would be the diesel, just by a bigger margin).

I'm not mixed up on the difference between btu per gallon, and thermal efficiency....you simply don't understand what thermal efficiency is.

We don't operate cars/trucks on cost per mile, we operate on gallons per mile if you're discussing efficiency....cost per mile varies with fuel costs. Further, this discussion is about tractors, not cars or trucks, and we operate them on a gallons per hour basis.

Manufactures sell where they can make money. As the highway vehicle, boat, snowmobile , motor cycle , ATV , RTV and small equipment purchasers want economical power. They purchase DI gas. There are some people stuck on the idea that since diesel was better from 1920 to 2006. They are not changing their minds or going to accept that thier pet diesel is threatened. They have invested years of telling people and purchasing diesels . They can't loose face and change their minds now.

Wow...lots of incorrect assumptions there. First off, the diesel system gets more energy out of fewer gallons regardless of what year it is. They usually weigh more, and cost a bit more (gap is closing), so they aren't perfect, but there isn't any question which makes more efficient use of fuel.

I don't own any road going diesels, and I never even owned a diesel until a couple of years ago. I've operated them off and on for close to 30 years, but didn't own any. I have exactly zero invested in telling people anything about them, much less that they should buy them. Heck, I only own three diesel engines right now and 15 or so gas engines.

Loose face? Is that even possible? Are there some bolts or rivets that hold it in place, or would it require a surgical procedure?

 

[adamtorch]

totally agree with @hutchman. HCCI is indeed still diesel technology.

 

[hutchman]

The 3000 psi system is less problematic than a 30,000psi diesel system.

Oh really? I didn't have time to address this one before lunch ...

Because Ethanol makes gas suck, now the fuel system has to be able to handle abrasives and fuel pumps and injectors are made out of special material that resist corrosion (and we have it from you that this doesn't cost any more than it does now). It doesn't have to be 2000 bar to kill gas injectors and fuel pumps. Ethanol gas is so great it can kill stuff at 200 bar (even less, it kills two cycles with diaphram carbs too ... what a deal!)

And if 10% mandated wasn't causing enough problems, now we have 15%! Brilliant! I and others have said it before and I'll say it again ... this crap has no place in a tractor environment.

In fact, this Ethanol crap is what has been screwing up Diesel engines too. You know why VW and others have had a rash of HPFP failues? Non ATSM spec fuel. What is it that's making it non spec? Because carriers have been using the same tankers to transport gassoline and diesel - diesel station pumps are contaminated with Ethanol. I find it funny (in a sick twisted way) that the Feds stuck their nose in this issue when the cause is their own mandaded foolishness!

VW's reply to a NHTSA investigation on high pressure fuel pump failures: "fuel system damage incurred by use of fuel not complying to ASTM-D-975 Grade 2 S15 (B5 or less biodiesel content) standards will not be covered under warranty."

AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - What Causes Fuel Pumps to Fail
Injector Repair LLC: Ethanol can cause fuel injector clogging and fuel injection problems.
Bad Fuel: Fact or Fiction? | KnowYourParts

... and I could go on and on with how genius Ethanol in fuel systems is.

So congratulations. Ethanol screws up fuel systems no matter what psi it is operating at ... it just does a quicker job the higher the psi is! Just another way our Govt. is looking out for us.

 

[kevin37b]

Wow , you guys get your panties in a wad over the damndest things . Buy what you like and drive it, is on your tab .