Anybody know where to get aluminum extrusions?

[jim_wilson]

You argue merits of a product that isn't available.

You don't have a semi so a 45' dump is not an option. On this forum we are speaking of a 10-16' dump trailer ( currently available in steel ) built out of aluminum.

My personal opinion is the correct strength material and the cost of fabricating will quadruple the cost of a steel counterpart . Money savers like you will never buy them. Few if any manufacturers will produce a product that doesn't have a large following at a competitive price.

There is no arguement to your inquiry. A simple fact is there is no example to copy ( aluminum specs. ) and you don't have the talent to build one. Matter of fact I don't believe you could weld a steel trailer. Before you go KNOCKING steel please show us the new and improved model.

Now put the pen down and get with the fabrication. You have viewed my building skills ( with that rusty, junk steel ). Words are cheap...... don't discount a product unless you have the better mouse trap.

I will take real vs imaginary any day.

Seriously - I don't know what you problem is. This thread was never intended as some sort of personal attack on your fabrication skills - and you know NOTHING about mine.

 

[Gary Fowler]

My thoughts are that price is what keeps aluminum from being used more than it is. Pound for pound, aluminum is twice as strong as steel but about triple or more in cost from what I have seen. I looked at putting some aluminum deck boards on my patio which is 12 x44 feet in size and the deck boards were going to cost about $6000 and that didnt include any sub-framing cost. If I remember correctly ( not too likely at my age) the wooden boards cost about $600 so I would have to replace the boards 10 times to break even and since it is covered deck, I doubt that I will ever have to replace the boards so that was a no-brainer for me.
As for your trailer, I would think that any structural steel supplier could order the material for you if you got your design down. Personally I would copy the design of one of the 18 wheel trailers (just scale it down) using double I beams down the middle and then gusset to the outside rail. Aluminum extrusions are available in similar shapes as structural steel. You would need to compare the strengths to steel for correct sizing to avoid overbuilding and thus over pricing the trailer. I dont think there is any gread fabrication skills beyond what is needed for steel in comparing to aluminum. A good Aluminum wire machine would make welding easy. I do think cost is going to blow your mind when you get pricing though. I just bought a 20 foot steel car hauler for $3K and a friend of mine has had an aluminum one for several year that he paid $6500 for the same size.
I cant believe you would spend that much difference in a life time blasting and painting a steel trailer. Weight wise you would be saving on gas mileage pulling it when empty but not too much when loaded, so depending on your amount of usage, it may never reach the break even point.
You may find that after pricing the components, you can buy one cheaper than you can build it yourself. Trailer mfgs. get price breaks for ordering in bulk which you wont get. For a good example of that, I recently purchased an above ground certified storm shelter that I thought was priced a bit high and wasnt more thatn a 4x 6 x6.5 steel box. I thought I could build it myself and save especially since my brother in law wanted one also. The design was available online so I went to a local steel supplier to price the raw components. It would cost me almost as much to buy the steel (then have to blast and paint and install) as buy it already built, painted and them installing it. Needless to say, I bought it from the manufacturer.
You may also consider looking around for used dump trailers, they come up on Craigslist occasionally although not in the small size your are suggesting. Not only will you be pricing aluminum material for the bead, but you will need hydraulic pumps and cylinders and the mechanical linkages to make it all work which is not an inconsiderable amount of money in itself.
I am not trying to discourage your build in anyway and I applaude those here that tackle the homemade contraptions that they come up with, but I seldom find that i can build from scratch as cheap as I can buy it. SOME LUCKY folks seem to find all kinds of free material to build stuff out of, but I cant even find free manure.

 

[jim_wilson]

My thoughts are that price is what keeps aluminum from being used more than it is. Pound for pound, aluminum is twice as strong as steel but about triple or more in cost from what I have seen. I looked at putting some aluminum deck boards on my patio which is 12 x44 feet in size and the deck boards were going to cost about $6000 and that didnt include any sub-framing cost. If I remember correctly ( not too likely at my age) the wooden boards cost about $600 so I would have to replace the boards 10 times to break even and since it is covered deck, I doubt that I will ever have to replace the boards so that was a no-brainer for me.
As for your trailer, I would think that any structural steel supplier could order the material for you if you got your design down. Personally I would copy the design of one of the 18 wheel trailers (just scale it down) using double I beams down the middle and then gusset to the outside rail. Aluminum extrusions are available in similar shapes as structural steel. You would need to compare the strengths to steel for correct sizing to avoid overbuilding and thus over pricing the trailer. I dont think there is any gread fabrication skills beyond what is needed for steel in comparing to aluminum. A good Aluminum wire machine would make welding easy. I do think cost is going to blow your mind when you get pricing though. I just bought a 20 foot steel car hauler for $3K and a friend of mine has had an aluminum one for several year that he paid $6500 for the same size.
I cant believe you would spend that much difference in a life time blasting and painting a steel trailer. Weight wise you would be saving on gas mileage pulling it when empty but not too much when loaded, so depending on your amount of usage, it may never reach the break even point.
You may find that after pricing the components, you can buy one cheaper than you can build it yourself. Trailer mfgs. get price breaks for ordering in bulk which you wont get. For a good example of that, I recently purchased an above ground certified storm shelter that I thought was priced a bit high and wasnt more thatn a 4x 6 x6.5 steel box. I thought I could build it myself and save especially since my brother in law wanted one also. The design was available online so I went to a local steel supplier to price the raw components. It would cost me almost as much to buy the steel (then have to blast and paint and install) as buy it already built, painted and them installing it. Needless to say, I bought it from the manufacturer.
You may also consider looking around for used dump trailers, they come up on Craigslist occasionally although not in the small size your are suggesting. Not only will you be pricing aluminum material for the bead, but you will need hydraulic pumps and cylinders and the mechanical linkages to make it all work which is not an inconsiderable amount of money in itself.
I am not trying to discourage your build in anyway and I applaude those here that tackle the homemade contraptions that they come up with, but I seldom find that i can build from scratch as cheap as I can buy it. SOME LUCKY folks seem to find all kinds of free material to build stuff out of, but I cant even find free manure.

I've thought about a lot of the same things you detailed above. To me the benefit(s) of aluminum are the weight savings - and the fact that over time aluminum (as long as it's designed correctly and doesn't have structural defects) - is pretty much NO maintainence whereas steel - no matter how you finish it - will need refinishing at some point in time if you want to keep it looking good and (depending) - may actually just rust out completely and be reduced to nothing. I live in the snow and salt belt - so steel up here lives a different life than steel does in the Arizona or Nevada desert.

I do have at least some passing familiarity with aluminum as a construction material. My father built an aluminum utility trailer - and let me highlight this for emphasis because there are some people here to seem to think that aluminum won't stand up over time or isn't "worth it" - 40 YEARS AGO.

40 YEARS.

The date he built it is stenciled on one of the front frame rails. Just about everybody he knows, me, and a bunch of people I know - have borrowed that trailer and used at one time or another for doing anything from hauling sheetrock (severely overloaded) - to dirt, to my Kubota BX23. It's nominal weight rating is 4000 pounds based on the axle rating - but he's pretty sure it's been seriously overloaded a number of times and it still comes back for a beating - FOR 40 YEARS.

It is also maintainence free - and requires NOTHING other than a hosedown if it's been full of dirt or something - to keep going. I bought a Worthington 2500lb aluminum utility trailer about 5 years ago - and again - I've been nothing but happy with it.

You're right about one thing - aluminum does cost more - probably 3 times more. But on the other side I am intimately familiar with rust restoration in steel as I have done a few restorations of old cars. The sandblasting, cutting and patching, carefully sealing and painting - etc. - are not something I want to deal with on a TRAILER. I want to be able to hook it up - and just USE IT - if needed: FOR THE NEXT 40 YEARS.

When I looked at getting the Worthington utility trailer I looked very carefully at what was out there because I was originally going to be towing it behind a car with a limited tow rating. Looking at steel vs aluminum I was going to lose a decent amount of carry capacity over what the axle rating was. The cost of steel was significantly better - if I remember correctly the Worthington trailer was something like $1500 - whereas a comparable steel trailer probably was going to run me about $750 or so.

I think aluminum wins unless you're just looking purely at initial buy cost. The argument that somehow aluminum somehow magically won't work in a 10to16 foot dump trailer is just ridiculous IMHO and has no basis in engineering fact or the inherent properties of the material.

Anybody who disagrees can go ***** to Featherlite - since they make one already:

Utility Trailers - 1520 Dump Trailer - Featherlite Trailers

 

[Creamer]

I have read through this thread and here is my two cents as licensed Mechanical Engineer.

Aluminum can be nearly as strong as steel with the right alloy and heat treat. For the interior of a dump trailer I would also have it hard anodized ad a good protective hard coat. It is a relatively low cost process that will provide a much harder surface for the box interior as well as providing oxidation protection on the outside, i.e. not the dull whiteness that a lot of aluminum develops. This is a common process that is available all over the nation.

Aluminum may be 3X as expensive per pound (I think it will be closer to 5X by the time you get the right alloy) as compared to standard cold rolled or hot rolled steel but it is also 1/3 the weight for the same size plate so it is about the same (or a little more expensive) for the same volume of material.

The trailer frame probably needs to be steel from a stiffness and general cost availability viewpoint. Aluminum can work and many semi trailers are made out of it but it takes a lot more engineering with a knowledge of trailer loads and dynamics.

Aluminum plate with supports is readily available but this would not be as good as having an aluminum extrusion with internal supports built in. I would think a hollow 2" x 6" or similar size with interior supports would be readily available. It is a good structural shape and there are a lot of aluminum extrusions in use - it is just a matter of finding them. Again, if you see one you like find out the brand and call the manufacturer of the item and they will probably tell you where they got it.

ALCOA is the big boy in the aluminum business. A few calls to them should get a contact at teh type of extrusion house that you would need for structural shapes and then a call or two to them should let you know if they have a standard extrusion that fits your needs or somebody who does. The call to ALCOA is critical - what you need to ask for is an Extrusion house that does enclosed structural shapes. It is very different to extrude a "C" section than a tube or multiple tube type cross-section. If ALCOA can't help you Ryerson or EM Jorgenson are very large structural metal distributors that deal in both aluminum and steel and should be able to provide a source.

Then it comes down to your design and fabricating ability. please keep in mind that most aluminum alloys are very weldable but Aluminum is not as forgiving as steel and is very particular about the process. here again the house where you buy the extrusions from should be able to give you good recommendations or provide you a contact that can tell you.

I hope I have helped. I see some negativity on this thread that I see no value in. I applaud anyone trying to create a something better and an aluminum trailer is something better. If it wasn't there would not be so many aluminum semi-trailers on the road!

Good luck!

 

[jim_wilson]

I have read through this thread and here is my two cents as licensed Mechanical Engineer.

Aluminum can be nearly as strong as steel with the right alloy and heat treat. For the interior of a dump trailer I would also have it hard anodized ad a good protective hard coat. It is a relatively low cost process that will provide a much harder surface for the box interior as well as providing oxidation protection on the outside, i.e. not the dull whiteness that a lot of aluminum develops. This is a common process that is available all over the nation.

Aluminum may be 3X as expensive per pound (I think it will be closer to 5X by the time you get the right alloy) as compared to standard cold rolled or hot rolled steel but it is also 1/3 the weight for the same size plate so it is about the same (or a little more expensive) for the same volume of material.

The trailer frame probably needs to be steel from a stiffness and general cost availability viewpoint. Aluminum can work and many semi trailers are made out of it but it takes a lot more engineering with a knowledge of trailer loads and dynamics.

Aluminum plate with supports is readily available but this would not be as good as having an aluminum extrusion with internal supports built in. I would think a hollow 2" x 6" or similar size with interior supports would be readily available. It is a good structural shape and there are a lot of aluminum extrusions in use - it is just a matter of finding them. Again, if you see one you like find out the brand and call the manufacturer of the item and they will probably tell you where they got it.

ALCOA is the big boy in the aluminum business. A few calls to them should get a contact at teh type of extrusion house that you would need for structural shapes and then a call or two to them should let you know if they have a standard extrusion that fits your needs or somebody who does. The call to ALCOA is critical - what you need to ask for is an Extrusion house that does enclosed structural shapes. It is very different to extrude a "C" section than a tube or multiple tube type cross-section. If ALCOA can't help you Ryerson or EM Jorgenson are very large structural metal distributors that deal in both aluminum and steel and should be able to provide a source.

Then it comes down to your design and fabricating ability. please keep in mind that most aluminum alloys are very weldable but Aluminum is not as forgiving as steel and is very particular about the process. here again the house where you buy the extrusions from should be able to give you good recommendations or provide you a contact that can tell you.

I hope I have helped. I see some negativity on this thread that I see no value in. I applaud anyone trying to create a something better and an aluminum trailer is something better. If it wasn't there would not be so many aluminum semi-trailers on the road!

Good luck!

Thanks Creamer, every piece of info I have gathered here has helped.

One of the reasons I thought of building the dump bed out of aluminum initially is for the corrosion factor. I agree with you about the anodizing - it will keep it looking better for much longer, but I'm ok with the oxidized look if it (eventually) - goes that way. Since the bed of a dump trailer will likely be exposed to all sorts of stuff that would scratch it up - I would rather not go down the route of anodizing - because I figure it will just get worn off eventually anyway. I used to work at a Co. that made spray painting equipment - and we anodized all of our products. It does wear off eventually. I've been looking around on the web some and I've found a number of companies that sell synthetic bed liners - I was thinking that would be the route I would go if I ever get to this project.

I agree with you on the frame - I was planning on welding that up out of steel and prepping and painting it very carefully to try to resist rust.

Those aluminum structural shapes you refer to (2x6) or something similar - is exactly what I'm looking for. There doesn't seem to be anything out there readily available - so I guess I'm going to have to dig a little deeper. My other altertive is to just use aluminum plate and design the dump box similarly to the dump boxes on the steel trailers. I've got a new Miller MIG welder on the way (upgrade from an old HTP) - but I wonder if welding is the way to go on this. The utility trailer my father built - was bolted together (with stainless fasteners) - so I'm wondering if the bed would be better of welded or bolted together.

 

[Agent Blue]

Hey Jim;
Like they say in an expensive restaurant........ anything is available as long as your wallet can carry the tab.
I called feather Lite mfg. and inquired about aluminum dump trailers. The rep. said they sell very few due to cost. The model 1520 you spoke of is a 10' model with a WOOD floor five plus feet wide with two 5200 pound axles ( sorry they are steel ). The price of this unit is $15000.00. This comes with a 1 year warranty. Last count one can buy 3 steel trailers at this price.
They will make any design you give them, ( any length, width, aluminum floor ) as a custom product and of course the price will reflect this. I am sure a $30,000 bill would cover an all aluminum 6.5 x 12 dump trailer and they will probably throw in aluminum wheels...... you may get change back depending on current metal prices.
Now, a frugal person ( like many of us ) looking for a Mercedes at Kia prices understand reality dictates steel isn't a bad choice. Building a trailer out of aluminum is not only very expensive but requires specialized equipment most of us do not have available . The feather lite spec sheet shows the 10' model at 3000. pounds. A comporable steel construction averages 4000.# Many production trailers are powder coated which will extend the surface life.
Don't take the facts as a personal offense. I am sure one could spend a lifetime scrounging aluminum for a reasonable price and hiring a competant fabricator to build this exotic box to haul dirt in a very fashion style one would be proud of. Going back to the first statement.... can you afford gold or will iron serve your purpose ? Is't paint looking real good now ?

 

[ozarklivin]

Jim,

I have gotten some from www.onlinemetals.com a few times. Depending on your needs, they might have what you want. It won't cost you anything just to check the site for the type of extrusion and aluminum alloy you want. I've only bought 6061 T-6 alloy for machining projects.

Hope this helps you.

 

[foggy1111]

Seems like a lifetime ago....But....In my past I was a sales rep for the largest aluminum extruder in the USA. I have over 20 years experience in selling this kind of material to a wide variety of users. I sold many millions of lbs each year for semi trailers, windows and doors, and boat docks and lifts and a wide variety of other custom extrusions. I likely sold more metal than most teen agers have seen.

Most of the companies that make these products have proprietary shapes of metal and thier own extrusion dies. The aluminum extrusion "factories" may have a few "house dies" to make some of the decking products you want, but they want to run several thousand pounds of each shape at a time in order to justify putting the die into the press. Then too....Low quantities to occasional buyers = higher prices. Most of my customers bought 40,000 or (many) more lbs each order.

IMO your best bet would be to find a high volume user of a profile that you want / need.....and buy it direct from that firm. I am about 20 years out of this industry.....but the game has not changed too much over time. I would be familiar with companies here in the midwest...but not with those in the northeast. Lacking a sutiable user / manufacturer locally....you could inquire from one of the metal warehouses that could carry some decking. It may be that the length you need could be an issue too. If you want 7' lengths and the manufacturer uses 12 footerers.....you could pay allot for your needs.

If I were your and really wanted aluminum decking.....I would focus my efforts on a local trailer manufactuer that will sell you some decking materials. You likely will want alloy 6061 T6 or it's equivilant. Be carefull where you weld on the material as that will change the temper in the weld zone. Lots to know about here.....steel is lots easier and cheaper for the novice IMO. Yep...aluminum does not rust.....but their needs to be some other values (for exapmple: lightwieght means increased payloads to truckers) for this material to it to be worthwhile for your build IMO.