Junkman
Super Member
Gordon..... I just noticed that you have "All Star" status. Is this new or have you had it all along? Congratulations are in order..... either way. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Junk
Anybody locking in Propane price for winter?
- Thread starter viking
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daedong
Veteran Member
I may be dumb but what is the source of Butane and Propane gas. Here we have LPG and natural gas and maybe propane but never hear of butane except for tiny little refill canisters for cigarette lighters. While i am asking silly questions does the US have good natural gas field.
Vin, propane is LPG. Butane is a form of LPG, too. LPG is Liquefied Petroleum Gas. Both are derived in a similar fashion -- either extracted from the flow of a natural gas field, or as a by-product of the refining process. As mentioned above, propane is liquefied at a lower temperature than butane. Butane also creates less pressure as the temperature increases, so that's why it's more effective for lower pressure applications like plastic cigarette lighters.
Apparently, they can be mixed, but I'm not aware of any butane being added to the propane I dispensed for over 8 years at my store.
The only chemical added to propane of which I'm aware is mercaptor (sp?), which is a foul-smelling chemical added to odorize the gas and make it possible to detect a leak by smelling it.
The primary reason LPG (Propane) is used rather than natural gas is because natural gas is much more difficult to liquefy, and therefore is generally piped to users. If there are no NG pipes in your area, it's too difficult to liquefy it, transport it in trucks, etc., pump it and store it in local tanks. LPG lends itself to that type of handling, so it's used most frequently in rural areas where there are no NG pipelines.
As for methanol used when purging a new tank, I have heard that Dry Gas (which I think is methanol or alcohol or whatever) can be added if you suspect there might be moisture in a tank. I never had to do it on the D.O.T tanks I sold, but I never sold a tank larger than 100 pound capacity (about 23 gallons). I've never seen a D.O.T. tank larger than 200 pound capacity -- not to say they don't exists, but the whole point of a D.O.T. (Department of Transportation) tank is that it's portable, so there's obviously a limit. The types of tanks most people have at their businesses or residences, and also in RVs if the tank is mounted to the chassis, are ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) tanks. I have heard of these larger tanks having moisture issues. But, in the 8 years that I purged tanks, I never had to do anything except replace the air with propane vapor (which is what is accomplished by purging).
Apparently, they can be mixed, but I'm not aware of any butane being added to the propane I dispensed for over 8 years at my store.
The only chemical added to propane of which I'm aware is mercaptor (sp?), which is a foul-smelling chemical added to odorize the gas and make it possible to detect a leak by smelling it.
The primary reason LPG (Propane) is used rather than natural gas is because natural gas is much more difficult to liquefy, and therefore is generally piped to users. If there are no NG pipes in your area, it's too difficult to liquefy it, transport it in trucks, etc., pump it and store it in local tanks. LPG lends itself to that type of handling, so it's used most frequently in rural areas where there are no NG pipelines.
As for methanol used when purging a new tank, I have heard that Dry Gas (which I think is methanol or alcohol or whatever) can be added if you suspect there might be moisture in a tank. I never had to do it on the D.O.T tanks I sold, but I never sold a tank larger than 100 pound capacity (about 23 gallons). I've never seen a D.O.T. tank larger than 200 pound capacity -- not to say they don't exists, but the whole point of a D.O.T. (Department of Transportation) tank is that it's portable, so there's obviously a limit. The types of tanks most people have at their businesses or residences, and also in RVs if the tank is mounted to the chassis, are ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) tanks. I have heard of these larger tanks having moisture issues. But, in the 8 years that I purged tanks, I never had to do anything except replace the air with propane vapor (which is what is accomplished by purging).
Bird
Rest in Peace
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I never had to do anything except replace the air with propane vapor (which is what is accomplished by purging) )</font>
Don, of course I've used LPG a lot /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, living in the country and as an RVer, but only had pretty limited experience pumping it. However, during the one summer I spent where I was doing that, I had quite a few customers come in with brand new 20# bottles to get them filled. I always told them about the recommendation to add methanol (of course for that size tank it would be less than one fluid ounce), and that I did not have the methanol; that I could purge and fill the tank or they could take it to a larger company if they wanted the methanol added. No one ever opted to go elsewhere.
Don, of course I've used LPG a lot /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, living in the country and as an RVer, but only had pretty limited experience pumping it. However, during the one summer I spent where I was doing that, I had quite a few customers come in with brand new 20# bottles to get them filled. I always told them about the recommendation to add methanol (of course for that size tank it would be less than one fluid ounce), and that I did not have the methanol; that I could purge and fill the tank or they could take it to a larger company if they wanted the methanol added. No one ever opted to go elsewhere.
PBMAX
Platinum Member
OkeeDon, the oder addative is commonly, as you may already know, called Skunk.... If you think it smells bad in LPG... You should smell it in pure form..... uuuuuuuuuuggggg....
I have built a few Skunk injection system back when I built control systems... Man we accidentally let one burst go in the wharehouse... We had to air it out for a bit.... The company we built them for was a spin on the Skunk Works name... I did not know there was an addative for colder temps though.... I guees it shouldn't supprise me....
Any body in bama locked in yet... We are considering it this yr given how wet it has been this summer it could be quite an icy winter even for bama....
I have built a few Skunk injection system back when I built control systems... Man we accidentally let one burst go in the wharehouse... We had to air it out for a bit.... The company we built them for was a spin on the Skunk Works name... I did not know there was an addative for colder temps though.... I guees it shouldn't supprise me....
Any body in bama locked in yet... We are considering it this yr given how wet it has been this summer it could be quite an icy winter even for bama....
Bird
Rest in Peace
Paul, I think LPG has Ethyl Mercaptan added for the odorant while natural gas has Methyl Mercaptan added, and of course, I don't know what the difference is, but supposedly sulphur is the primary cause of the odor in both. When I was doing gas leakage surveys, one place I checked was a station where the gas company had tapped into a cross country pipeline and was adding the odorant at that point. The pipeline was running at 975 psi that day and, from the odor, anyone approaching that station would have sworn they had a bad leak, but even with very sensitive equipment, I found no gas leaks at all.
The one thing I can say for sure about the stuff is that if you are around it enough, it will kill your personal sense of smell, at least to the point where it takes a year or more to get it back. Also, you gradually become immune to it. When I was filling tanks, it got to the point where I could no longer smell it -- or much of anything else, for that matter.
Bird
Rest in Peace
I can't say I'm surprised by that, Don, but fortunately, I wasn't around it that much or that long. One article I read in an RV publication mentioned some study that had been done that found that women can smell it before men can, but they couldn't determine why. I'm inclined to believe it, though, since most of the people I've known and those my brothers encounter working on RVs who complain of leaks are complaining because the woman of the house said she smelled it.
PBMAX
Platinum Member
it is definatly some stout stuff. the sample contanier we had was not much lager than a co2 cartrige for a bb guns.... But man would it curl the nose hair....... we used it when building the injector system for testing the PPM output..... If I remeber right..... it's been a few years....