Anyone else waiting to see if tractors without the EPA stuff are coming?

[4570Man]

You never want to say never, but there is zero chance that pre emission control tractors (or tucks) are coming back. All engine manufactures base their design platforms on a world wide market and there are over 7.6 BILLION people in the world who live outside of the US who are not effected by by this government. That's a big market!
Source: 36 years as a manufactures rep in the AG industry.

How many of those 7.6 billion live in countries without emission control already?

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

I find it somewhat arcane that in the United States, we generally spend more per pupil than any other civilized country for education but, our students rate dead last in not only proficiency but general knowledge as well. Something is seriously wrong and I have a good idea what it is though because it's political I cannot allude to it on the forum....

Because we spend money on administration and not education.

Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it, it just makes people wealthy

 

[sunandsand]

"if it isn't THEIR idea and it didn't happen on THEIR campus, it doesn't exist. They are incredibly insular and do. not. listen. or even acknowledge the "outside""

And, who is 'they" but us in other roles.

"We have met the enemy and she is us" . . .(the phrase) ," artfully applied to different scenarios, it continues to tell us more about ourselves—and the world around us."

Citing a teacher driving a rusty Pinto for a cogent defense of Public Education speaks volumes about the intellectual honesty of the speaker and precious little about the institution attempting to serve 350,000,000 people distributed throughout fifty individual states occupying a combined 3,805,927 square miles and reaching halfway around the globe.

We have some five hundred fifty or so representatives in Washington in which the minority party actually represents the majority of our population (if not always the popular or Electoral College ballots) and these represent but our national assembly.

We have fifty state legislative bodies that find Gerrymandering a justifiable tool to leverage the power of a party in power at the state level into outsized influence in our national assembly.

We find bribery of a public official or elected representative to be a felonious criminal offence while condoning unlimited anonymous / untraceable funding of politicians' political campaigns rendering our principle of One Man, One Vote a sorry proposition when compared to our prescient pun on the Golden Rule "He with the gold rules."

One wonders if the speaker ever considered and appreciates the phenomenal complexity that is our two hundred and thirty-five year old constitutional democratic republic conceived of in an era when enslaving our fellow man was part and parcel of the men of property signing that "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen United States of America" aledging "the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them . . . that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.—That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . .
" when, among those so governed are millions, ignorant of the history and historic efforts over two centuries that have brought us to the success we've long enjoyed.

We are able to freely ***** about a nation and government we, demonstrably, know so little about (as evidenced so often on Late Night TV 'sidewalk interviews' of passersby - and the like at rallies political and otherwise) without fear of retribution. Why we even have presidential candidate proudly proclaiming "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever" without fear of arrest or prosecution, and another promising to be a 'dicktater for a day' without losing a democratic vote - and delivering in spades, if not for spades.

When it comes to such anecdotal hearsay 'evidence' as the referenced Pintoed Educator, I've one you can try yourself.

When confronted with one denigrating this, that, or the law, program, initiative or proposal in, considered for or proposed by congress assembled, ask them one or more of the following questions:

When does your (City, County, Parish, Council) meet?
When did you last attend one of those meetings?
Who is your representee in your state house (or Senate)?
What Congressional District do you reside in?
Are the Judges in your state political appointees?
Does your state apportion E.C. Ballots?

And, should the ***** relate to a particular Agency, as he referenced comment was to the Department of Education, ask the bitcher one of the following:

Have you read the policy (objected to)?
When was the department created? Who signed it into law?
What is the official Mission Statement of the department?
What would you change about the policy?
How would you go about effecting that change?
Are you working on it presently, or just bitching?

Simple solutions attract simpletons. Democratic republics presume intelligence, intellectual honesty as well as morality on the part of those who would call themselves citizens of the republic and embrace (literally or otherwise) our flag.

Wow, I'm not sure what to reply or even where to start . . .

I'd point out that the quality of education (and of educators) varies from place to place, sometimes by a lot. Ms. Pinto is an example of a bad one. There are some good ones, too.

As to do I know when my local government meets, the answer is yes, it is the second and fourth Monday of every month, and I have been at EVERY meeting for the past twelve years. Our local congressman is now in DC, not because he's particularly good at anything, but because he has kissed the ring.

Politicians are like poker games. Sometimes you get a good hand, sometime you get jokers. In any case, you have to work with the hand you've got, winners, complete bozos or somewhere in between.

But you're right - Mark Twain said that for every problem, there is a simple, quick, easy solution - which is wrong.

I'd prefer to swipe a concept from Japan - Kaizen - make a small improvement every day, because it adds up, long term. I remember when Japanese cars were garbage, now they make some of the best cars in the world.

What I see in education and in government is the absolute refusal to make any change - until the next election, when the new crowd installs their own petrified opinions.

In 1975, there was a contest (unofficial) for a national motto. The winner was "We ain't perfect, but we ain't done." I think we've lost that attitude.

With best regards,
Mike/Florida

 

[scott_vt]

Good Afternoon Hay Dude,

We need to bring back industry and manufacturing, not give it all away to China.

Couldn't agree more. I started a toolmakers/modelmakers apprenticeship back in 1972. It was a 8000 hour 4 year deal. I made great money for 36 years and then the bottom of the economy fell flat in 2008. A lot of our work went overseas. My kids were out of college for sometime by then so I decided to switch over to outside work, so I started driving trucks part time since my wife had a very good paying job. The trades can provide a very comfortable life style and that knowledge can spill over to other things in your life where working with your hands can save you a lot of money.

As far as the emissions thing goes, I sometimes drive a 2000 Peterbuilt truck with zero emissions, no DEF, and that truck gets twice the mileage that the 2012 Peterbuilt that I drive does.

As far as China goes, I dont believe that they adhere to any emission standards. Im not saying that we shouldn't but it does make one think about what standards we should abide by. JMO

 

[charlessenf]

(I'm a youngster of 78), and it didn't seem to matter who was "in power", the educational system was always pretty screwed up.

I was born in NYC and got my start in NY Public Schools (also had folks who thought Pre-school was worth spending extra on - sorth of a private pay "Head Start"). I did well in schools (K-9) there and went on to High School and Community College in Maryland and then to finish up my Bachelor's, then Masters in Florida.

I've taught for private and public institutions, elementary through university level primarily in computer and real property subjects. In my three quarters of a century of 'educational experience,' the students are key.

Can you recall the classrooms where the classroom clock was on the wall at the front of the room over the blackboard? Never understood why they did it that way. When I designed my 'Computer Classroom,' the clock was behind them. I needed to see the clock to pace myself. They needed to be surprised by the bell - so rapt was their attention to the subject at hand.

Back in the day, I sat in classrooms where, inevitably and some minutes before the (50min) hour was up, my fellow students would be closing their books, putting pencils away, preparing to bolt for the exits when that bell rang.

Mom read to me and bought me books (lots of 'dog stories' and Readers Digest condensed books). I can relate some of those dog stories to this day. I read Century of the Surgeon before I completed Junior High Woodshop and Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, Cannery Row, Mice and Men before I entered High School.

I credit Momma. She made me a reader. She let me read whatever - not simply image laden 'Children's Books' (there were no pictures in the story Goodbye My Lady, one had to imagine what an African Basenji looked like, as well as her "baroo.") I had to imagine the bloody 'street dressed' civil war surgeon amputating limbs without anti-bioics of patients without antithetics.

I had the benefit of etherization and sterilization when they took my tonsils out - but declined the ice cream offered when I awoke.

What I noticed from the proverbial podium were students bereft of such preparation as momma provided. Implicit as was the message that school was a benefit, a privilege to be enjoyed, a process I needed to excel at regardless my path in 'this life' that came with 'head start' and every book she read to me or gave me for my own.

I recall the Dumont Television i our living room. I was not always on. Indeed, my Uncle had showed mom how to remove a (or temporarily disable) power tube so that we couldn't even turn the thing on without her approval and assistance!

Since, things have changed and parents seem to have (since I was a tot) reneged on their responsibility vis-a-vis the education of future citizens of our republic.

Granted the shifting economics since the nineteen fifties with Middle Class jobs paying living wages (Federal Minimum Wage under Captain Harry was $0.25/hr) and then some - my mom didn't need to hold down a job to keep body and soul together and The Middle Class ruled. Marginal tax rates were as high as ninety-percent and we put a man on the moon.

Now s kid in Kindergarten comes to school with a belly full of sugary cereal and a cell phone to fidget with and his teacher is a poorly paid (35-50K) female looking to supplement hubby's 80K paychecks because 'everything's so expensive' and we need three cellphones and an Internet connection - where my mom had a phone on the wall in the kitchen which I was not allowed to answer without permission.

Not only doesn't Mom know why the ingredients on that box of Kellogs aren't listed in alphabetic order*, she doesn't know what Unit Pricing is or why it exists on the shelves of her fav grocery outlet*.

So mom and pop have less time for the kiddies and the kiddies suffer - but not so much as their teachers (having to cope with the 'ose hyped' offspring absorbed by a cell phone game) offering the lesson of the day.

Imagine if public schools could simply send your kid home because "he/she was deemed ill-prepared" and tend, instead to those children that were really ready for public school. Leaving it to their (I assume) bitching parents to fix.

There are no simpler solutions to our complex 'problems' and if you think there are, you are just one more 'problem.'

If this is deemed political, what else might you expect in a democratic republic?

* It is the law

 

[deezler]

Just read am article in the local rag about how Fords is offering a scholarship type of program for auto technicians due to the acute lack of them. Also claimed that an accomplished auto tech can command a 100-120K wage a year. News to me. I've never seen any tech pull down those kind of wages and if they exist, I'm pretty sure whatever dealer they work at won't stay in business long as there is no way their customers could pay the hourly labor rate to cover that.

All the laboratory technicians working for auto suppliers in our area are making $80-120k now. Not a car dealership, no, but its comparable work in many ways. No specific formal education required, just have to prove your competency at wrenching, diagnostic/programming, and solid decision making under pressure.

 

[deezler]

DDEC engines are the only 4 stroke diesel engines I've ever seen that instantly turn the lube oil black.

Never been a 4 stroke Detroit diesel fan for a number of reasons, mainly torque rise which is vitally important when hauling heavy loads.

I'll take my 3406 Cat over a Detroit anyday of the week. Mine is an NZ as well. one of the most sought after engines in existence today.

CAT would still be building and selling their engines if it wasn't for the EPA and their book smart but not practical application dummies that work there.

That also applies to diesel engines in larger tractors.

No offense intended, but I'm not sure you've actually driven a day-cab with a DD13 or DD15 engine anytime in the last 15 years? The fact that you have to clarify 4-stroke instead of 2-stroke implies that your experience is from many decades ago.

They are absolute powerhouses. I dyno test them near continuously at work for my employer (powertrain supplier). Clean, efficient, incredibly reliable. And 1800 lbf-ft at 1000rpm, 515 HP at 1500 rpm.

 

[vanskills]

I live in Montana around lots of farms….no pollution here ..

 

[scott_vt]

Good Afternoon Charles,

So mom and pop have less time for the kiddies and the kiddies suffer - but not so much as their teachers (having to cope with the 'ose hyped' offspring absorbed by a cell phone game) offering the lesson of the day.

Many schools are now asking that the students put their cell phones in a locked bag at the beginning of the school day. A positive move by school administrators IMHO

 

[charlessenf]

Wow, I'm not sure what to reply or even where to start . . .

I'd point out that the quality of education (and of educators) varies from place to place, sometimes by a lot. Ms. Pinto is an example of a bad one. There are some good ones, too.

As to do I know when my local government meets, the answer is yes, it is the second and fourth Monday of every month, and I have been at EVERY meeting for the past twelve years. Our local congressman is now in DC, not because he's particularly good at anything, but because he has kissed the ring.

Politicians are like poker games. Sometimes you get a good hand, sometime you get jokers. In any case, you have to work with the hand you've got, winners, complete bozos or somewhere in between.

But you're right - Mark Twain said that for every problem, there is a simple, quick, easy solution - which is wrong.

I'd prefer to swipe a concept from Japan - Kaizen - make a small improvement every day, because it adds up, long term. I remember when Japanese cars were garbage, now they make some of the best cars in the world.

What I see in education and in government is the absolute refusal to make any change - until the next election, when the new crowd installs their own petrified opinions.

In 1975, there was a contest (unofficial) for a national motto. The winner was "We ain't perfect, but we ain't done." I think we've lost that attitude.

With best regards,
Mike/Florida

"I'd prefer to swipe a concept from Japan - Kaizen "

Actually I think we did. I think it was called Quality Circles:

"While both Kaizen and quality circles aim for continuous improvement, Kaizen is a broader philosophy focused on incremental changes to processes, while quality circles are a specific tool within Kaizen, involving small groups of employees who identify and solve work-related problem"

"After World War II, Japan decided to make quality improvement a national imperative as part of rebuilding their economy, and sought the help of Shewhart, Deming, and Juran, among others. W. Edwards Deming championed Shewhart's ideas in Japan from 1950 onwards.

I was employed by a city in Florida that attempted to utilize what was said to be Deming's program (borrowed from FP&L?).

However, incremental improvement upon a rather stable process - assembling vehicles, rifles, washing machines, etc is not as simple a task when the 'process' is evolving as rapidly as has human society has been.

The proverbial moving target. Where the incremental change you thought of no longer applies because a device, technique, approach or process no longer exists/is in use.