Tig
Veteran Member
IMO Horsepower is for talk, torque is for work. But torque numbers are not on the sticker, so go with the engine that has served you well in the past.
Are Honda horsepower ratings different?
- Thread starter daugen
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MHarryE said:
I used to think the nebraska test ment something til last week. I know a guy that had tractor that is supposed to be 54hp and nebraska tested. He was having problems with being low on power. So the dealer took it in and dynoed it. It made 28hp! The had 3 tractors on the lot like it. They tested them and they also made 28hp.
OP
daugen
Epic Contributor
some early morning rambling:
Tractordata.com has always posted the Nebraska test scores if available, which I find interesting. Nice to see the one L Kubota tested nailed the pto hp exactly.
Once upon a time I had an old Bertram with twin 8V71TI's that sucked 35 gallons an hour at a modest cruise. Wasn't too bad when I bought the boat at 73 cents a gallon but sure made me sell
it when diesel went over 4 bucks a gallon on the water. So I spent a lot of time studying the torque curves of those motors trying to find a sweet spot for running the boat. But when I tried to get info on
small motors, it wasn't easy. Diesel torque curves show a lot more output at lower rpm than gas motors, which of course is why diesel trucks can pull so much weight, why tractors use diesels, etc etc. Problem with an air cooled engine
is that you need to run it well over half speed in warm weather or you won't get adequate cooling. And it seems most manufacturers now want you to run it flat out due to emission control, because a throttle has become a thing of the past.
I spent hours researching a simple push mower that actually came with a throttle, because it drove me nuts having the thing run flat out cold. I don't even like it running wide open, governed or not, when I simply don't need the power. Now a mower depends upon blade tip speed, so rpm is more critical. But like Tig, my understanding is that torque is much more important for tractors. I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but without torque/hp curves, it's just guesswork. Just seems like we are all using way too much fuel running gas engines faster than they have to. I got the caretaker at our church to slow our Exmark mower down just slightly under full power, and he immediately remarked how much less fuel he was using, and the mower worked just fine.
Something I found remarkable is that stated torque values of small diesels and gas engines in garden tractors were very close. I expected the diesels to blow away the gas engines on torque. But again, at what rpm? As long as a water cooled engine reaches adequate working temp, why not run it at the slowest speed that gets the job done? Problem with the gas engine torque values is that I'm sure they are achieved at full or close to full rpm, where the diesel makes its torque at much lower rpm, so you can work at lower engine speed. Less fuel used, less noise, hopefully less engine wear. Of course a diesel is governed at a much lower rpm than gas engines.
So it gets back to experience with your machinery, and finding out for yourself. And the average homeowner with a gas engine couldn't care less. But fuel costs are a huge issue to higher hour users, witness EFI now coming into smaller gas engines, cutting fuel use by 10-20%. Somewhere in the rpm/torque/engine temp mix is the sweet spot for most economical operation that still gets the job done. At least on our tractors we still have a throttle. For now...
I've always liked Honda engines because the whole company seems to place a priority on engineering and achieving top quality. As does Subaru. Not too many "dud" Honda engines. But there sure have been some crappy engines built by the American factories, and now with plastic cams and gears in motors, one has to wonder whether motors are being designed to last just past the warranty period.
Tractordata.com has always posted the Nebraska test scores if available, which I find interesting. Nice to see the one L Kubota tested nailed the pto hp exactly.
Once upon a time I had an old Bertram with twin 8V71TI's that sucked 35 gallons an hour at a modest cruise. Wasn't too bad when I bought the boat at 73 cents a gallon but sure made me sell
it when diesel went over 4 bucks a gallon on the water. So I spent a lot of time studying the torque curves of those motors trying to find a sweet spot for running the boat. But when I tried to get info on
small motors, it wasn't easy. Diesel torque curves show a lot more output at lower rpm than gas motors, which of course is why diesel trucks can pull so much weight, why tractors use diesels, etc etc. Problem with an air cooled engine
is that you need to run it well over half speed in warm weather or you won't get adequate cooling. And it seems most manufacturers now want you to run it flat out due to emission control, because a throttle has become a thing of the past.
I spent hours researching a simple push mower that actually came with a throttle, because it drove me nuts having the thing run flat out cold. I don't even like it running wide open, governed or not, when I simply don't need the power. Now a mower depends upon blade tip speed, so rpm is more critical. But like Tig, my understanding is that torque is much more important for tractors. I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but without torque/hp curves, it's just guesswork. Just seems like we are all using way too much fuel running gas engines faster than they have to. I got the caretaker at our church to slow our Exmark mower down just slightly under full power, and he immediately remarked how much less fuel he was using, and the mower worked just fine.
Something I found remarkable is that stated torque values of small diesels and gas engines in garden tractors were very close. I expected the diesels to blow away the gas engines on torque. But again, at what rpm? As long as a water cooled engine reaches adequate working temp, why not run it at the slowest speed that gets the job done? Problem with the gas engine torque values is that I'm sure they are achieved at full or close to full rpm, where the diesel makes its torque at much lower rpm, so you can work at lower engine speed. Less fuel used, less noise, hopefully less engine wear. Of course a diesel is governed at a much lower rpm than gas engines.
So it gets back to experience with your machinery, and finding out for yourself. And the average homeowner with a gas engine couldn't care less. But fuel costs are a huge issue to higher hour users, witness EFI now coming into smaller gas engines, cutting fuel use by 10-20%. Somewhere in the rpm/torque/engine temp mix is the sweet spot for most economical operation that still gets the job done. At least on our tractors we still have a throttle. For now...
I've always liked Honda engines because the whole company seems to place a priority on engineering and achieving top quality. As does Subaru. Not too many "dud" Honda engines. But there sure have been some crappy engines built by the American factories, and now with plastic cams and gears in motors, one has to wonder whether motors are being designed to last just past the warranty period.
LD1
Epic Contributor
I see us starting down antoher HP vs Torque thread:banghead:
Sorry I cannot help answer the OP's question, but my comments are in response to the last couple of posts mentioning HP just being to sell engines and torque is what really matters for tractors etc.
Well, I have a different take.
No matter what you do, you cannot get more HP. What you buy it at is what it is. But the "all important" torque is as simple as changing gearing.
Tractor engines themselves dont have to make a ton of torque. They get the torque from the gearing. If you need more torque, pick a different gear.
Sorry I cannot help answer the OP's question, but my comments are in response to the last couple of posts mentioning HP just being to sell engines and torque is what really matters for tractors etc.
Well, I have a different take.
No matter what you do, you cannot get more HP. What you buy it at is what it is. But the "all important" torque is as simple as changing gearing.
Tractor engines themselves dont have to make a ton of torque. They get the torque from the gearing. If you need more torque, pick a different gear.
OP
daugen
Epic Contributor
yeah, I did get off topic for sure. But it all boils down to usable power, and trying to run as efficiently as you can. I've owned a number of Honda mower engines, and they never seemed to be all that powerful, or more powerful than others. But they sure lasted a long time, and usually what they were in failed before the engine. Since I can't "gear down" my push mower, the specs seem to take on more importance. But then for an awful long time, 3-4hp was the norm for push mowers, and now only the lowest end units have such small motors. Like our cars, we all love hp.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Correct. But at the cost of efficency. We dont need 200hp+ 4-cylinders to commute to work IMO. I drive a 100hp saturn, and it gets better MPG than MOST of or the newer higher HP small cars.
MY comments were meant that HP IS and important number when rating engines, and is for more than just "talk" as someone mentioned earlier. Thats not saying torque isnt equally as important, cause it is, but you have to look at MORE than just torque.
Torque is simply a measure of work that "can" be done. HP just adds the time element into the equation. IE: how fast said work can be done.
You can have all the torque you need to tow that trailer, BUT if you dont have the HP to tow it at an acceptable rate of speed, you wont be happy.
So the gist is, as long as you have enough torque to DO the work, the HP determins how fast you can do that work.
Tig
Veteran Member
ooops, I should have thought that through before I posted.
I did not intend to hijack. I intended to offer an explanation of why all engines of a given HP are not created equal.
Hope that fixes things, now I'm outta here.
LD1
Epic Contributor
ooops, I should have thought that through before I posted.
I did not intend to hijack. I intended to offer an explanation of why all engines of a given HP are not created equal.
Hope that fixes things, now I'm outta here.
And all engines of a given torque arent created equal either.
Thats all I am saying.
OP
daugen
Epic Contributor
as the OP I appreciate the feedback and no one hijacked this, I'm the one who went astray... I tend to digress on my digressions...
as long as you have enough torque to DO the work, the HP determines how fast you can do that work.
now that little gem of wisdom is something I'll remember.
I ran my woodsplitter with its B&S 1650 engine today for three hours this morning, just over freezing, and it started up on the first pull, and ran flawlessly. No complaints for sure.
And I only run it at three quarters speed because it never stalls at that speed, runs quieter, etc. So I must have plenty of torque, though yes, if I ran it full throttle, the cycle time would be faster.
Just not in a rush.
as long as you have enough torque to DO the work, the HP determines how fast you can do that work.
now that little gem of wisdom is something I'll remember.
I ran my woodsplitter with its B&S 1650 engine today for three hours this morning, just over freezing, and it started up on the first pull, and ran flawlessly. No complaints for sure.
And I only run it at three quarters speed because it never stalls at that speed, runs quieter, etc. So I must have plenty of torque, though yes, if I ran it full throttle, the cycle time would be faster.
Just not in a rush.
