Auger Question

[bmac]

I surely don't want to dominate this forum, but its been kind of slow this weekend, so I'll pose another question.

I'll preface the question with a short story so you'll then understand why I'm asking it. My father-in-law has an older (~15 year old) Ford tractor. Don't know the model, but it has a 16 or 18 HP diesel engine and is compact in size. One day some time ago, he was using his post hole digger. The auger got a good bite on the clay and subsequently drilled into the ground, lifting the fron end of the tractor off the ground. I can't remember how he resolved his dilema, but as the auger is driven by the PTO, he couldn't put it in reverse to unscrew it.

So, that leads up to my question. Is the hydraulic motor on the PT auger reversible? I know that everone here knows by now that I have no tractor experience so p[lease excuse this question if it is too absurd. But I seem to recall a thread in another section where Wroughtn Harv or someone else described the advantages of a hydraulic post hole digger on his skid steer and reversibility of the auger was one of the advantages (in addition to the ability to apply down pressure).

Not knowing the first thing about hydraulics, this question may be completely off base. I apologize in advance if it is.

 

[MossRoad]

That's a good question. I never asked it either. I'm waiting for someone to respond. Also, I'll add to the question, which PTO does it run from? The main that is controlled by the switch on the dash or the auxiliary, which is controlled by the lever in front of your right knee? The aux would make sense as it is reversible with the lever, but I don't know if it has the uumph to drive a motor. If it is the mian PTO the only way I could see to reverse it would be to either install a cross over valve or manually swap the hoses. So which is it? I'm excited /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[davesisk]

Hey Bmac, I can answer for an older one (1990 PT1418), and believe the answer is still the same. The power auger is NOT reversible. I don't have the auxillary PTO (the one that opens/closes the quick attach cylinders) because it's too old, I only have the main PTO, but that's the one that the PHD runs off of for old and new if I'm not mistaken. I believe the power auger head itself may be reversible, but the main PTO just doesn't have a way to reverse it's direction of flow. There's certainly no reason you couldn't switch out the one way valve with a two-way valve that I can think of.

I asked this question once before here too, I was a bit surprised that the main PTO wasn't reversible also. Someone offered this explanation: most slow speed hydraulic motos (like the wheel motors, PHD motor) are reversible, but most high speed hydrualic motors (like the stump grinder) are not, and would in fact be damaged by running them in reverse. For this reason, PT choose to make it none reversible (to protect us from ourselves, I guess). I would much rather have had the reversibility and a clear marking on the stump grinder that says "Don't run this in reverse, dummy!" myself...

The remaining benefit that you do have over a 3PT PDH is that you have down pressure greater than gravity. However, with the swivel auger head, if you put enough down pressure on it to lift the front of the tractor, the tractor will kind of fall sideways, especially when you first start the hole AND when using a larger auger. I just got a 9" auger, and I haven't tried it yet with that one, but I'd imagine it drills quite a bit better than the 24" auger I currently have.

If the auger gets stuck, then you can simply shut the PTO off and raise the lift arms. That should work pretty well, as it would have to pick up the whole back-end of the tractor if it were that stuck. You could always turn the PTO off and on as you raise if it's tangled in roots, etc.

HTH,
Dave

 

[pajoube]

Davesisk,
You mention that you’re new 9" auger drills much better than your 24" auger. Can you elaborate on the down side of the 24" auger? I am looking a purchasing some of the larger augers for tree and plants.
PJ

 

[davesisk]

PJ:

Well, I don't know that for a fact yet, but I suspect that it's true. (I'll know for sure after I help one of my friends put up fence posts!) I tried using the 24" auger in my yard (which is mostly rocks and roots), and it didn't do such a great job. When I'd put enough downforce on it to lift the front of the tractor, it would fall sideways. Now, granted this is very hard ground, my impression was that the front of the tractor just wasn't heavy enough to apply enough downforce without lifting the wheels off the ground.

Now, I may have gotten very different results if I'd had the 9" auger at the time. I would have likely tried to first bore a 9" hole, then enlarge it to 24". I have a feeling that might have worked much better, but I don't know for sure. When I put my fence up, I didn't have the tractor yet, so I and my bro-in-law were using a two-man gas-powered auger, and we had to first bore a 6" hole, then enlarge it to 9" just because the ground was so tough and the two-man auger kept practically knocking us off our feet when it hit a rock or root! (Boy, wish I'd had the tractor then! I simply can't imagine trying to dig postholes in my yard by hand. It would take 1 day/hole!)

I feel sure the 24" auger would work fine in softer dirt without a huge amount of rocks and roots. After I help my buddy with his fence posts (probably next month), I'll post some definites about the 9" auger. One after-thought is that it would probably help to hose-down the area with water first also...

HTH,
Dave

 

[deadstick]

I don't have the auger so cannot comment specifically, but when I was buying the Tiller, I had asked the question do you drive backwards or forwards and the topic of a reverser kit was bought up. I didn't need it for the tiller but maybe it can be used on other attachments such as the PHD??? I don't know but you might want to check...

 

[bmac]

Just to complete story about the stuck auger, I called my father-in-law today to refresh my memory. Again, he had the auger buried and the front end of his tractor was off the ground. Through aggessive motivation with a sledge hammer, he was able to free up the pins on the 3ph which allowed him to liberate the tractor from the post hole digger. However, he had to dig the auger out of the ground with a backhoe. So now you know...., the rest of the story.

From what I'm reading from the factory, the PDH is not reversible. But with some modifications (with or without the blessings from PT), it may be possible to make it reversible. Am I reading these posts correctly?

 

[MossRoad]

Only if the motor on the PHD is the reversible type. Otherwise, kaboom(or just damage). Maybe someone should call the factory... not me /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

BMAC:
A little trick that might have saved driving some 3 pt hitch pins. When drilling with an auger, carry the biggest pipe wrench you own and a torque multiplier (6 feet of 2" pipe comes to mind.) If the auger gets stuck, unscrew it from the ground. If it needs more than a 6 foot pipe, mount your fence to the auger and buy another one. You can say it is a special decorative post.
I think the PT auger motors are reversible, so you can accomplish reversal in an emergency with a couple of gender changing adapters to reverse the hoses. I haven't gotten those for my PT 1845, since my soil is easy. The auger has stalled a few times on roots or rocks, but broken through by switching on and off - without shearing the bolt. Once it stuck pretty tight, but I was able to rock it just a little and pick it out of the hole. I try to put it down at a controlled rate so it is digging rather than screwing itself past the hard spots. I have found it immensely more easy to use than a 3 pt auger. You position it by driving forward to our mark, do fine adjustments side-to-side by turning the wheel slightly, and forward and back by pedal pressure. Even at low throttle setting, mine has plenty of speed, and I assume the 425 unit does as well.
In my sandy soil, with the 9" auger, one minute per hole is not unreasonable. You may have to scoop the last little bit of dirt out with a hand post hole digger to get full depth, but that just reminds you that without the PT you'd have to use that instrument of the devil for the whole job.

 

[pajoube]

Thanks Dave,
Appreciate the feed back and will watch this thread for any new updates.
PJ

 

[bubenberg]

when i bought my 9 inch auger, we, pt and i went over the different option one has. the first of installing a reversal valve about $175.00 or attach a male/female and a female/male hose part when i am stuck with my auger in our lovely clay shale combination around here.

contrary to my danhuser so far i never got stuck ... but will now because i am bragging. but i have fully in mind to to get the hose adapter.

the 9 inch auger does a much better job than the 12 incher i have on my kubota tractor, less tamping work to secure the fencepost, much faster installation, no stiff neck from looking back all day, less tired and one less hourly wage to pay.

before i had to people putting the post in the ground and fine tune the alignment and one person just tamping around the posts. know with a smaller hole that job has been alleviated.

 

[bmac]

Well, just got off of the phone with Chris at Power Trac to clear this up. According to Chris, the hydraulic motor of the auger (I specifically inquired about the planter auger head) is reversible. There are 2 options as to how one can take advantage of this reversability. One, as mentioned above, is with the use of a reversable valve that mounts to the auger head. I will assume that one would have to dismount the tractor, flip a switch or lever on the valve and then return to work. Of course, this would prevent the potential problem previously addressed regarding inadvertantly reversing the hydraulic flow on implements that were not meant to be reversed. The second option is to simply reverse the hydraulic lines at the auger head. As I know nothing (literally) about hydraulics, I am going to assume that with quick disconnects, this would be a job that would be measured in seconds to accomplish. He said the hoses at the head are identical, i.e., no gender changes required to do this (which i imagine all of you real users know this - no major news flash for y'all).

So, in summary - buy a valve or switch the hoses. Too bad you can't do either from the seat. Hope this helps.

 

[davesisk]

Thanks for info, bmac. Actually, the third option is to replace the valve in the tractor that starts/stops the main pto. However, that might be a bit more involved. I've never talked to PT about this, so I don't know if they have any recommendations about how to do this.

My old tractor is a little different from the newer ones. On the newer ones (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), the main pto is operated by an electric switch on the dash, where the auxillary pto (the one that closes the rams for the quick attach) are operated by a lever down near your right leg. My old tractor's main pto (doesn't have an auxillary) is operated by a lever down near my right leg. I was particularly surprised that mine didn't go in reverse. You push the lever down and the flow turns attachments forward; you pull the lever up and it turns attachments forward. WTF? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. In the middle is off. For mine, it probably wouldn't be too hard to replace this one-direction valve with a two-direction valve. On the newer models with the electrically operated main pto, it might be a little more involved, I dunno.

Dave

 

[MossRoad]

There is no valve for the main PTO on my PT425. The electric switch turns it off or on. So, you would need to either put a reversing valve somewhere on the tractor(left side is pretty open) but that could lead to operator error reversing the mower, for example. I think the easiest and cheapest way would be to put quick disconnects on the lines at the post hole digger head. Then, on the rare occasion that you got it stuck you could shut down, hop off and switch the hoses and back it out in about a minute. That's what I would do If I had one.

Also, my Aux PTO is from a different pump and runs with the valve by your right knee. It runs the locking cylinder on the quick attach plate. There are quick disconnects on the hoses to that cylinder, so that after you mount an implement, like the snow plow, you disconnect the locking cylinder in the locked position and connect the plow's angle cylinder. Then the knee lever becomes the power angle lever. Works pretty well.

 

[Carpenter]

I've drilled quite a few postholes with both the 9" and 12" augers. The holes have been in clay, rock and a mixture of both. So far (knock on wood), I've had no instances of the auger being really stuck. I did hit some buried steel on one hole, but was able to easily break free by moving forward and backwards and side-to-side. I agree with Charlie, that taking it easy on the speed and down pressure is wise. Although, if I remember correctly, he set some kind of Guiness record for postholes drilled per hour. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[davesisk]

<font color=red>
When drilling with an auger, carry the biggest pipe wrench you own and a torque multiplier (6 feet of 2" pipe comes to mind.) If the auger gets stuck, unscrew it from the ground. If it needs more than a 6 foot pipe, mount your fence to the auger and buy another one. You can say it is a special decorative post.
</font color=red>

ROTFLMAO! Thanks Charlie! You certainly can shed new light on contraversial subjects. Still ROTF!

 

[bubenberg]

that is what i had to do with the danhuser ... those were the days....lalalalala ... no more

 

[bubenberg]

chris is not always telling the same story ... you don't need a valve ... because you so aptly said or quoted the hydraulics are reversible.

you want to buy a valve, be my guest i did not have to.
the other you don't have to leave the seat either ... just stand up get the adapters out of your pocket switch the lines from side to side and you are in business.

good luck

hrl

 

[bmac]

h.r.

I probaby wasn't too clear in my post. Chris did not say that you have to add a valve. He said that you COULD add a valve OR reverse the hoses. Certainly, he did not advocate one method over the other. (BTW, the caps above are added for emphasis, not hostility)

Where you and Chris differ (I think) is exactly where you reverse the hose attachments. I think your method is to do it at the tractor end, which is why you describe using the gender changers. Chris recommended changing the hoses at the auger head where the connections are identical (no male/female issues). Now he didn't state that the connections at the auger head were quick disconnect and I didn't ask. Having never seen a Power trac machine or the auger, I certianly don't know. I ended the conversation with him thinking that they must be quick disconnect to make the hose swap method a viable way of doing this. Maybe a bad assumption on my part.

Now, I have openly admitted my ignorance on all things tractor related. So, I am only passing on this explanation as I understand it, not necessarily how this works in reality.

Thanks you for the reply. I hope this is a more lucid explanation of my understanding. I don't want anyone to think that Chris tried to sell me something that was not necessary to acomplish this task.

 

[davesisk]

bmac:

Good point. Yes, the quick connect are male/female that hook to quick connects on the tractor that are female/male. The fittings on the hoses simply screw onto the PHD head with a wrench. So, yes, you could easily switch the hoses at the auger without have to add anything, just carry a big wrench with you.

Dave