B2400 starting problem finally solved

[Henro]

VRSW said: I ask the parts guy....."is there anything special about this relay or is this a standard 12v relay?" The parts guy says that there is nothing at all special about it.....just a standard 12v relay. It's not even a weatherpack relay.....it's just like this one:"

This is actually incorrect. But what do parts guys know?

The relay in the John Deere kit is special, in that it is designed to pick up at a much lower than nominal 12 VDC. I checked the specs a while back when I put the JD kit relay on my BX 2200. The JD included relay energizes at something like six voits, and drops out at 4 V or something like that. I posted the exact values in a similar thread somewhere here.

Regardless, I have concluded, as you have, that a standard 12 V relay is very likely to work satisfactory as the solution to the "click-click" problem. If I were to do it again, I would use a standard cheap 12V relay, instead of buying the John Deere kit. The specifications of the relay used in the JD kit are better, but good enough is good enough, and the standard relay likely is good enough in most cases.

Bill

 

[rdsaustintx]

BUMPING this thread. This should should be a "sticky" on the Kubota forum!!!

2004 BX23 1300 hours. The last few years have admittedly been less maintenance-intensive. But I have been playing "click bingo" on startup for at least a decade (sometimes starts, often just clicks). Yeah, new batteries, checking fuses, cleaning/adjusting switches, douching out the ignition switch, etc. But it ALWAYS came back. Some days just gave up, sort of dreaded using the thing. Was considering new starter assembly...

This weekend I put the John Deere AM107421 kit in. Takes 15 minutes total. Connectors fit perfectly.

WOW. It really, really works. In love with my tractor again.

Sort of amazed how many threads still show up around intermittent starting, with the same old symptoms and (vain) troubleshooting tips. Simply too much voltage drop through all the switches on older machines and this fixes it.

THANK YOU TBN and Kubmech!

 

[Jbfla]

Need one more post to be able to post links.......:confused3:

jb

 

[Jbfla]

Thought I would add pictures to my original Post, but am unable to edit.

Relay mounted to alternator bolt:



Relay wiring:





I was also curious if the safety switches would be bypassed using the JD relay kit.

The gear lever (hydro transmission) still needs to be in the neutral position.

The PTO lever still needs to be in the disconnect position.

But I no longer have to depress the clutch pedal to start the engine.

jb

Unable to edit my post.

Reposting photos:

No starting problems since the JD kit was installed....5 years ago.

jb

 

[JWR]

Kubota l4200. Though for sure the John Deere relay kit would fix it but still get the same issue. turn key, click or slow crank and nothing. Thinking it must be the starter selenoid but I'm unsure how to pinpoint that before taking the starter off. Any suggestions?

thanks

This has been an amazing thread ! Literally going on for more than 10 years !! I certainly have the problem with my BX2200. Let me offer a few comments. (I am an electrical engineer, which proves nothing, but lets you know my background; been fussing with tractors for more than 50 years. Much more so in the last 20.
1) I believe this problem is much more subtle than a starter solenoid/relay. The reason Virvis still had the same issue after installing the JD relay is because that is not the problem in the first place AND because it sometimes works and sometimes does not ... regardless of the relay.
2) About relays: essentially ALL low voltage (12v and vicinity) relays are NOT very sensitive to input voltage. Most will work on a fairly wide range of voltage. Voltage sensing relays exist but they sure are not put on tractors!
3) There are some very good clues here. I suspect most, if not all, reporting this problem will confirm that they hear the relay click in yet cannot get starter motion. That tells you right there that the relay/solenoid is NOT the problem nor the solution.
4) Here are a few more clues: a) Reaching in to the starter housing and tapping on it with a socket extension or other heavy steel rod will cause the starter to work on the next try EVERY TIME in my experience. b) That narrows the problem to the starter itself OR the electrical connections to it. c) Almost always jarring the machine by towing the tractor on concrete a few feet backwards (using my truck) typically means it will start on the next try. I won't say "always" because I've only done that a few times.
5) Chances are that those of you replacing the relay have rattled the connections, made slightly better connections, tightened some cables, etc. which delivered slightly more voltage to the starter, not the relay. It is also possible that the JD relay is providing less voltage drop on the way to the starter but I doubt that. I would bet that replacing the Kubota relay would have done exactly the same thing (no more, no less) as putting in the JD relay. It is POSSIBLE that the secondary side of the relays are getting corrosion or just crudded up enough to cause some voltage drop across the relay.
6) The reason I mention those things in 5) above is that -- whatever the internal starter issue may be -- it is obviously MARGINAL and not some kind of major go-no-go issue. So slightly better voltage to the starter is very likely to overcome the problem at any one moment. Notice everyone says that using a jump start typically results in the starter working -- probably because that provides a little more voltage to the starter. Cleaning and tightening all terminals and ground bolts, etc. is a fine thing to do (which I did) but is not really the long-term fix.
7) I am convinced that the issue is some sort of internal starter problem. I'll wager no user ever had this happen in the first year or two with a brand new tractor.
8) I'd like to see someone do the research (and seek assist via Kubota or better yet the starter manufacturer) to find out what other machines use the same starter,whether they have had similar issues, and educated ideas of what the real problem is. I say with comfort it is NOT the relay and is almost certainly the starter itself. As with any debugging problem it is much harder because you can't make it fail and it only does it "sometimes."

I'm interested in other comments.

THIS IS BAD INFO ABOVE > I WAS WRONG BACK THEN> There are TWO kinds of issues causing similar problems described in this thread -- one has to do with a sticky starter (some internal starter issue) and the much more common one does involve using a John Deere relay kit. Identical content and function to a similar kit sold by Kubota in 2022 + which they call "a hard start kit."

 

[Jbfla]

Re: B2400 starting problem finally solved,,m

............ I certainly have the problem with my BX2200...........
I'm interested in other comments.

Thanks for your thoughts on the starting problem.

How did you solve the problem with your BX?

I don't disagree with your analysis, but if replacing the relay solved my starting problem (for 5 years so far) and kept me from having to buy a new starter, I'm OK with the solution.

jb

 

[JWR]

Re: B2400 starting problem finally solved,,m

Thanks for your thoughts on the starting problem.

How did you solve the problem with your BX?

I don't disagree with your analysis, but if replacing the relay solved my starting problem (for 5 years so far) and kept me from having to buy a new starter, I'm OK with the solution.

jb

Sure, if it solved your problem for 5 years running that has to be a good thing. I do not think that buying a new starter is called for in any of these cases. It may also be an indication that there are 2 kinds of somewhat related issues with the same symptoms. I have not solved my problem, just learned to deal with it for the time being. Maybe once out of 8 or 10 times the problem crops up and I tap the starter with a rod and light hammer tap or drag it out where I can reach it better and then it (usually) no longer needs even the hammer tap. Eventually I'll get around to researching the problem more if no one else does. Might be that taking the starter apart and cleaning it up would drive the problem away, in my case, for a few years.

I want to talk to my local starter and electric motor repair shop first (which is Amish and I can't just call them...)

 

[Henro]

JWR,

As you say (I think you said, you wrote too much for me to digest at the moment as I am taking a break from chores) there are many possible reasons for starting issues.

My background is also electrical, few decades as an engineer in heavy industry, mainly electrical. But like you said, who cares?

In my case, the BX2200 intermittent "click, click no start" issue was 100 percent immediately solved by installing the JD kit.

By the way, the Kubota relay you mention in point 5 of your post does not exist. The JD kit inserts a relay as an addition.

After installing the JD relay, (which by the way is special and although rated at 12 VDC, actually will energize and much lower voltage, something like 7 volts or so, and not de-energize until the applied voltage drops to about 4 volts), I since concluded that ANY small relay would probably work just as well. The reason being that the current requirements of a small DC relay is so much smaller than the starter solenoid, that voltage drop across safety interlock switches would become basically irrelevant, at least in the medium term.

Like I said, I did not digest your entire post. I think you were saying there are at minimal several possible reasons for a tractor not starting. Each needs to be diagnosed and rectified.

I don't think you were writing off the use of an interposing relay as a waste of time, which it certainly is not. The issue with voltage drop across interlock switches on the BX and I assume on JD tractors is pretty well documented.

The fix depends on the problem. It has been around three years since I installed that interposing relay on my BX. I actually forgot I had had the issue until seeing this thread today. I might have even posted in this thread earlier for all I know... When I clicked on the tread it took me to the first unread post...

 

[JWR]

Yeah, verily. I just assumed there was a similar Kubota relay being replaced by the Deere. Since there is not, it seems extremely likely that the the Deere relay is reducing the voltage drop between the battery and the solenoid which apparently makes a difference.

Since the Kubota certainly has a solenoid (which I hear closing) one wonders why the solenoid has trouble being energized and yet we hear it (?) I guess I need to find a circuit diagram instead of making "normal" assumptions. Has anyone posted a diagram?

 

[victor43]

Update: I originally started this thread in 2004. Great to see that it is still providing help. The relay has been in my B2400 for 16 years now and the tractor has never failed to start on the first try. Whatever the reason, the relay has provided a permanent solution for me. Thanks again Kubmech.