Egon
Epic Contributor
Patrick,
Do you go the gym for a workout to keep in shape after a day working?
Egon
Do you go the gym for a workout to keep in shape after a day working?
Egon
Basement Types
- Thread starter buckeye
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patrickg
Veteran Member
No, I don't work out at a gym. I can usually find enough manual labor to satisfy my meager aspirations at home. Besides, at a gym do they have "equipment" that will simulate lifting a series of 40 lb blocks up over your head while standing on tip toes and placing them gently at the 8 ft level? To remain balanced and spare my back if I am going to carry a block more than a couple steps I carry one in each hand. This familiarity with 40 and 80 lbs alowed me to estimate the weight of my most recently trapped beaver at 65 lbs. Any scrimshanders out there who would be interested in beaver incisors?
Patrick
Patrick
GlueGuy
Veteran Member
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- Jan 24, 2001
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- Tractor
- Kubota B7500
Patrick,
So you looking (or considering) an earth sheltered design too? We just went out to Davis, CA on Sunday to talk to an architect that has some experience with earth sheltered designs.
The one consideration with ICF's is whether they could handle the load. My rough calculations are that with a 3' earth cover, you're looking at about 400 lbs load per square foot of roof. That would make a 2500 square foot house have a roof load of "about" 500 tons! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
I'm debating on the cheapest, strongest method for this construction. I've looked at poured and shotcrete, and am leaning toward the shotcrete method, and maybe even a monolithic design.
The guy we met on Sunday advocates putting the minimum amount of earth on the roof as is practical for the local climate. In Davis, his place only has 11" of soil on top, and no insulation at all under the slab. Amazingly (in Davis anyway), the average soil tempurature is almost 70 degrees, which is very close to his desired living tempurature.
So you looking (or considering) an earth sheltered design too? We just went out to Davis, CA on Sunday to talk to an architect that has some experience with earth sheltered designs.
The one consideration with ICF's is whether they could handle the load. My rough calculations are that with a 3' earth cover, you're looking at about 400 lbs load per square foot of roof. That would make a 2500 square foot house have a roof load of "about" 500 tons! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
I'm debating on the cheapest, strongest method for this construction. I've looked at poured and shotcrete, and am leaning toward the shotcrete method, and maybe even a monolithic design.
The guy we met on Sunday advocates putting the minimum amount of earth on the roof as is practical for the local climate. In Davis, his place only has 11" of soil on top, and no insulation at all under the slab. Amazingly (in Davis anyway), the average soil tempurature is almost 70 degrees, which is very close to his desired living tempurature.
Buckeye,
Before you get your new foundation installed, check out the article "Keeping a Basement Dry" in the July 2001 issue of Fine Homebuilding. I think you can order back issues through their website. They discuss the use of waterproof sealant, interior and exterior drains, drainage flashing, vapor barriers, proper gutter drainage etc. They talk about a survey of 33,000 new home buyers and 44% had leaky, damp basements. It's something easier to prevent than treat.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.finehomebuilding.com>http://www.finehomebuilding.com</A>
Before you get your new foundation installed, check out the article "Keeping a Basement Dry" in the July 2001 issue of Fine Homebuilding. I think you can order back issues through their website. They discuss the use of waterproof sealant, interior and exterior drains, drainage flashing, vapor barriers, proper gutter drainage etc. They talk about a survey of 33,000 new home buyers and 44% had leaky, damp basements. It's something easier to prevent than treat.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.finehomebuilding.com>http://www.finehomebuilding.com</A>
Chillimau
Silver Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
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- 210
- Location
- Prairie View, OK
- Tractor
- Yanmar 147, 1987 Model Made for USA (not a grey)
PatrickQ,
What block are you using? Why so thick? I agree about the ICFs making a good basement and above grade wall, but what about termites boring into the below grade foam. Are you using "lite deck" for the floor?
I have heard if you don't want termites in the foam don't put any foam below grade.
Gary
What block are you using? Why so thick? I agree about the ICFs making a good basement and above grade wall, but what about termites boring into the below grade foam. Are you using "lite deck" for the floor?
I have heard if you don't want termites in the foam don't put any foam below grade.
Gary
StoneHeartFarm
Veteran Member
Glueguy and Patrick
You guys are gonna love it. Our new place is earth contact, with the main floor completely bermed on 3 sides. We finally got the drywall finished and I'm painting the downstairs now. I can sit there in the worst storms and not know anything is going on outside. About the only thing you can hear is the occasional tractor going down the road and even that can't be heard if the radio is on. No drafts, no noise and with the furnace running between November 15th and January 1st, (LPGas) we used 7% of our 500 gallon tank of fuel. I've been keeping the temp set at 58 degrees and that seems quite comfortable (if not sometimes a little warm) for working. Of course, the second floor isn't bermed and it's a whole different world up there.
I went with poured walls. If I could have found someone to do shotcrete I might have gone that way. They are constructing some above ground domes that way. The only problem I see with the Shotcrete would be getting flat walls. It would take a sharp eye and steady hand to trowel them out. I didn't even consider the foam forms before I poured. After reflection, I don't think they would have worked in our location since it's the middle of an open field and there's a lot of wind. (Enough to pick up 12"x4x8 bundles of pink board and blow them across the field-- with me chasing and screaming something about the cost.)
My decision for going poured was two fold. First, with 12' high walls, the block would have required some serious reinforcing. After paying someone to lay all the block, I would still have to drop rebar inside and fill all the holes with concrete, plus I was told I would need a tie bar around the top. This would have added significantly to the cost of the block walls. Second, I helped a buddy build a house similar to mine a few years ago and he used blocks. Every time we visit in the winter his wife is talking about how damp and cold the walls are.
SHF
You guys are gonna love it. Our new place is earth contact, with the main floor completely bermed on 3 sides. We finally got the drywall finished and I'm painting the downstairs now. I can sit there in the worst storms and not know anything is going on outside. About the only thing you can hear is the occasional tractor going down the road and even that can't be heard if the radio is on. No drafts, no noise and with the furnace running between November 15th and January 1st, (LPGas) we used 7% of our 500 gallon tank of fuel. I've been keeping the temp set at 58 degrees and that seems quite comfortable (if not sometimes a little warm) for working. Of course, the second floor isn't bermed and it's a whole different world up there.
I went with poured walls. If I could have found someone to do shotcrete I might have gone that way. They are constructing some above ground domes that way. The only problem I see with the Shotcrete would be getting flat walls. It would take a sharp eye and steady hand to trowel them out. I didn't even consider the foam forms before I poured. After reflection, I don't think they would have worked in our location since it's the middle of an open field and there's a lot of wind. (Enough to pick up 12"x4x8 bundles of pink board and blow them across the field-- with me chasing and screaming something about the cost.)
My decision for going poured was two fold. First, with 12' high walls, the block would have required some serious reinforcing. After paying someone to lay all the block, I would still have to drop rebar inside and fill all the holes with concrete, plus I was told I would need a tie bar around the top. This would have added significantly to the cost of the block walls. Second, I helped a buddy build a house similar to mine a few years ago and he used blocks. Every time we visit in the winter his wife is talking about how damp and cold the walls are.
SHF
GlueGuy
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The straight walls isn't as much a concern for me, but I know where you're coming from. According to the people I've been talking to, "there are ways". We'll see. We still have a long way to go before we get started. We don't even have a plan yet. We're still playing around with paper dolls, and trying to determine rooms, layout, etc.
I've been surfing the web, and am discovering that concrete has come a loooong way from the old days.
BTW - How much insulation do you have under and on the sides of your earth-portion of your building? Did you do anything special to protect against moisture? Stuff like drain tiles, moisture barriers, and so on....
Also, as for the block construction; I would say that a good way to go would be to put up the blocks "dry", and embed rebar horizontally & vertically as required. Then do the surface treatment on both sides, then fill with concrete. This is supposed to be far stronger than the old "morter between the blocks" routine. I forget what the technical name is for it. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
I've been surfing the web, and am discovering that concrete has come a loooong way from the old days.
BTW - How much insulation do you have under and on the sides of your earth-portion of your building? Did you do anything special to protect against moisture? Stuff like drain tiles, moisture barriers, and so on....
Also, as for the block construction; I would say that a good way to go would be to put up the blocks "dry", and embed rebar horizontally & vertically as required. Then do the surface treatment on both sides, then fill with concrete. This is supposed to be far stronger than the old "morter between the blocks" routine. I forget what the technical name is for it. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
patrickg
Veteran Member
I'm using (nominal dimensions) 8 inch high, 16 inch long, and 12 inch wide block. This is "knock out" block and has three partitions forming two cells. The partitions are factory "scored" 1/2 way down from the top to facilitate knocking out the partitions as needed for rebar or whatever. When you come to a corner you would only knock out the central and one end partition so as not to let the cement pour out. I knocked out all partitions except those that were required to prevent the pouring out problem mentioned above. These block weigh 40 lbs each with all partitions in place.
Wider block allow a thicker wall section. I wanted a foot thick wall. A construction guy that moved here from Minnesota said that these were the standard basement building block up there as when laid with mortar joints in the traditional fashion are considerabley stronger than 8in. blocks. I placed rebar vertically in every cell (8 inch centers) and horizontally in every course (8 inch centers) and will pump the walls full of concrete 100% ending up with a foot thick steel reinforced wall.
I'm doing this as an above ground safe room/storm shelter in tornado alley for my mom and I want to exceed the requirements imposed by f-5 class tornados. My biggest regret is that half way through the project I found ICF outfits that would do custom widths. I couldn't find ICFs over 8-10 inches initially or I would have used them and saved a lot of manual labor. I used nearly 10 tons of block. I had to handle each block many times so it is the equivalent of handling over 100 tons of block one time apiece.
I dry stacked the block (NO MORTAR) as when filled the result will be indistinguishable and the additional labor of "laying" the block with mortar joints would be wasted. I mixed up 3 bags of mortar mix and did a "Stucco" job on the end seams, corners, and anywhere I got a gap that might leak. This was on the inside, luckily, as we got nearly an inch of rain yesterday. I have a shingled roof over the shelter, as when completed it will be given vinyl siding when the garage is done. The shelter will appear as part of the garage, a windowless room on one side at a corner. Next I will do the outside with mortar mix where needed and form the ceiling (also about a foot thick with over twice the rebar of the wall section, just in case something "drops by" during a storm. Not likely to happen but an 18 wheeler could be dropped on the shelter and I think it would protect the occupants.
Patrick
Wider block allow a thicker wall section. I wanted a foot thick wall. A construction guy that moved here from Minnesota said that these were the standard basement building block up there as when laid with mortar joints in the traditional fashion are considerabley stronger than 8in. blocks. I placed rebar vertically in every cell (8 inch centers) and horizontally in every course (8 inch centers) and will pump the walls full of concrete 100% ending up with a foot thick steel reinforced wall.
I'm doing this as an above ground safe room/storm shelter in tornado alley for my mom and I want to exceed the requirements imposed by f-5 class tornados. My biggest regret is that half way through the project I found ICF outfits that would do custom widths. I couldn't find ICFs over 8-10 inches initially or I would have used them and saved a lot of manual labor. I used nearly 10 tons of block. I had to handle each block many times so it is the equivalent of handling over 100 tons of block one time apiece.
I dry stacked the block (NO MORTAR) as when filled the result will be indistinguishable and the additional labor of "laying" the block with mortar joints would be wasted. I mixed up 3 bags of mortar mix and did a "Stucco" job on the end seams, corners, and anywhere I got a gap that might leak. This was on the inside, luckily, as we got nearly an inch of rain yesterday. I have a shingled roof over the shelter, as when completed it will be given vinyl siding when the garage is done. The shelter will appear as part of the garage, a windowless room on one side at a corner. Next I will do the outside with mortar mix where needed and form the ceiling (also about a foot thick with over twice the rebar of the wall section, just in case something "drops by" during a storm. Not likely to happen but an 18 wheeler could be dropped on the shelter and I think it would protect the occupants.
Patrick
patrickg
Veteran Member
P.S. I forgot to comment on the termites. Read the info avail from the ICF folks Re termites. There are treatments etc. One source says after the grouting cures to cut a 6 inch wide strip of foam off the outside so you can visually inspect for subterranean termites trying to get out of the ground into the upper structure.
Patrick
Patrick
patrickg
Veteran Member
GlueGuy, In a word YES! I have been interested in energy efficient architedture since '84 when I took some courses from the AIA (Architectual Institute of America... like AMA is for doctors this is for architects) At the time I was employed in an engineering position, Energy Conservation Officer at SUBASE San Diego. Never got on a sub the whole time I was there as my job related more to the shore installation except for a cogeneration project where we burned natural gas in a turbine that produced electricity and used the waste heat to make clean steam for the sub tenders so they could go "cold iron" when in port. I have a fairly extensive library (packed since move) on earth sheltered and energy efficient architecture. I have searched extensively for knowledgeable architects in the earth sheltered design arena and as you have found there is a lot more interest and talk than successfully built and operating structures.
There are a lot of these structures in the midwest. Many built by folks not qualified to build a garage much less a basement or earth sheltered home. Earth sheltered housing has goten a bad rep due to the poor design and or workmanship of many examples.
Its the psi of course not the total load, but you know that. I've visited a builder near Kansas City, MO whose home and office are built by his method. I've seen pictures of a large catepillar tractor and an articulated earth mover parked on his roof atop a 5 ft earth cover. He has never had a structural failure. His dad originated their method and this fellow started working with his dad at age 16 and has over 25 years experience now. They build 24x24 and 28x28 foot modules with eliptical domes for ceilings. Very nice. Can be done in any combination of 24 or 28 foot modules, half modules or flat roof sections.
Gotta go... Maybe we cold (should?) share some info via a private channel so as not to bore tractor people with earth sheltered housing talk.
Patrick
There are a lot of these structures in the midwest. Many built by folks not qualified to build a garage much less a basement or earth sheltered home. Earth sheltered housing has goten a bad rep due to the poor design and or workmanship of many examples.
Its the psi of course not the total load, but you know that. I've visited a builder near Kansas City, MO whose home and office are built by his method. I've seen pictures of a large catepillar tractor and an articulated earth mover parked on his roof atop a 5 ft earth cover. He has never had a structural failure. His dad originated their method and this fellow started working with his dad at age 16 and has over 25 years experience now. They build 24x24 and 28x28 foot modules with eliptical domes for ceilings. Very nice. Can be done in any combination of 24 or 28 foot modules, half modules or flat roof sections.
Gotta go... Maybe we cold (should?) share some info via a private channel so as not to bore tractor people with earth sheltered housing talk.
Patrick
