JohnMiller3
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2001
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- 2,517
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- Capital District, Upstate New York
- Tractor
- Satoh S650G, MF135, MF165, JD5205
Bashing
- Thread starter TheChamp
- Start date
- Views: 15742
JohnMiller3
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2001
- Messages
- 2,517
- Location
- Capital District, Upstate New York
- Tractor
- Satoh S650G, MF135, MF165, JD5205
CNH $$$ Worldwide AG Revenue for year 2000
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/1-90953-NHWorldwideRevenue2000.jpg
{notice a few dollars on selling parts}
"You are what you eat, drink, think, say and do..."
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Muhammad on 12/17/01 09:54 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/1-90953-NHWorldwideRevenue2000.jpg
{notice a few dollars on selling parts}
"You are what you eat, drink, think, say and do..."
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Muhammad on 12/17/01 09:54 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
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sherbs
Member
The JD Dealer should be comparing the 4100 to a Kubota 7500 or 2410.
I would stay away from Any Brand Dealer that has to bash another
brand to make a sale!
I would stay away from Any Brand Dealer that has to bash another
brand to make a sale!
TresCrows
Elite Member
Jerry, no, you are incorrect, better check that spec chart again--I got it right here--the flow you quote is for the gear model and not the hydro model--that is why I quoted "hydro".
No again--I think the 4100 is exactly the model in the JD line up that is the 2410's competitor based on weight, wheelbase and similar features such as position control, wheel and tire sizes. Yes, you are correct the 2410 has more horsepower from a slightly larger engine--advantage Kubota--you get a bigger engine by a slight amount in this Kubota vs JD comparison in a similar size tractor!
When I priced these units a year ago the Kubota costs less but with model close outs available on the Yanamar produced 4100 it could be the smok'in deal of the year on a great (101'st time) tractor.
Nope, I will stick with the rock I picked--JD's comparison to the BX is unfair and apples to oranges but to the 2410 it is apples to apples. Oh--by the way--the 2410 also has duel pumps.
I also would say that if I was shopping between these two tractors and I got a good deal on the 4100 I would take it and run laughing to the bank--there is very little difference between them--I was just pointing out that when one fairly compares apples to apples and not to oranges (smaller orange ones to boot) like the JD website does Kubota comes out as often as not a tad ahead.
I thought we were going to drop this thread?
J, the guy y'all love to hate
No again--I think the 4100 is exactly the model in the JD line up that is the 2410's competitor based on weight, wheelbase and similar features such as position control, wheel and tire sizes. Yes, you are correct the 2410 has more horsepower from a slightly larger engine--advantage Kubota--you get a bigger engine by a slight amount in this Kubota vs JD comparison in a similar size tractor!
When I priced these units a year ago the Kubota costs less but with model close outs available on the Yanamar produced 4100 it could be the smok'in deal of the year on a great (101'st time) tractor.
Nope, I will stick with the rock I picked--JD's comparison to the BX is unfair and apples to oranges but to the 2410 it is apples to apples. Oh--by the way--the 2410 also has duel pumps.
I also would say that if I was shopping between these two tractors and I got a good deal on the 4100 I would take it and run laughing to the bank--there is very little difference between them--I was just pointing out that when one fairly compares apples to apples and not to oranges (smaller orange ones to boot) like the JD website does Kubota comes out as often as not a tad ahead.
I thought we were going to drop this thread?
J, the guy y'all love to hate
DFB
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
- Messages
- 2,897
- Location
- Southern VT, Southern ME
- Tractor
- John Deere 4100 HST /410 FEL, R4s
For what it's worth here's how the different systems work on 4100 models. This is straight from the TM.
1. On BOTH the gear and the HST versions there is an engine (camshaft) mounted pump that controls hydraulic flow for the 3pt system and other additional outlets such as the optional OEM DSCV.
Rated 5.1 gpm @ 2650 rpm on either tractor.
Gear tractor has a ADDITIONAL 2nd engine mounted hydraulic pump (mounted foward of implement pump) to supply hydraulic pressure to the SCU (steering control unit). Rated 2.3 gpm @ 2650 rpm
HST power steering along with the final drive power transfer is controlled by a closed loop fluid power system consisting of a charge pump/piston pump/ pump motor. According to powertrain hydraulic specifications the charge pump provides hydraulic flow to operate the steering system, pto clutch, pto brake and to prime the hydrostatic pump/ motor. Charge pump flow ranges from 1.6 gpm @ 1000 rpm up to 4.2 gpm @ 2650 rpm.
Now if I can only find the chapter on carburator greasing./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
DFB
1. On BOTH the gear and the HST versions there is an engine (camshaft) mounted pump that controls hydraulic flow for the 3pt system and other additional outlets such as the optional OEM DSCV.
Rated 5.1 gpm @ 2650 rpm on either tractor.
Gear tractor has a ADDITIONAL 2nd engine mounted hydraulic pump (mounted foward of implement pump) to supply hydraulic pressure to the SCU (steering control unit). Rated 2.3 gpm @ 2650 rpm
HST power steering along with the final drive power transfer is controlled by a closed loop fluid power system consisting of a charge pump/piston pump/ pump motor. According to powertrain hydraulic specifications the charge pump provides hydraulic flow to operate the steering system, pto clutch, pto brake and to prime the hydrostatic pump/ motor. Charge pump flow ranges from 1.6 gpm @ 1000 rpm up to 4.2 gpm @ 2650 rpm.
Now if I can only find the chapter on carburator greasing./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
DFB
DarinRay
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2000
- Messages
- 557
- Location
- West Valley, New York
- Tractor
- 2004 JD 4310 300CX 72MM, dozers, excavtors, bachoes, loader, tractors.
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
I agree with you glennmac! I say 'ding' 'ding' round two....Not that I have any input I just like confrontations./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I mean all sides of the story.
Darin
I agree with you glennmac! I say 'ding' 'ding' round two....Not that I have any input I just like confrontations./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I mean all sides of the story.
Darin
TresCrows
Elite Member
Anyway you look at it a total flow of 7.0 is greater than a total flow which is specifically stated in the JD spec chart of 5.1 for the hydro model.
What kinda grease you use on the JD carb--is it synthetic?
Do JD's still have carbs? or do the new JD's have atomic powered fuel nucleorizers. Apparently someone at JD cannot add and subtract to achieve accurate specs.
You know what, the more this goes on the more commited to Kubota I become because there is just something about JD's always having to be the best that convinces me I do not even care. If Kubota was pink and had no hydrualics and a kangaroo powered cable operated loader it would still be better than a piece made JD as long as the Kangaroo was raised and trained by a Kubota Kangaroo specialist.
Are those fenders plastic--is that plastic on the JD made from US oil or imported oil?--is it refined into JDplastosis at a special US factory or imported from Mexico? Are the engineers all US born or are some imported? Do you think the Dino's where special JD plastic varieties that yield superior JD plastic or just common garden variety types?
Is the paint on the JD special US made paint or is it--oh wait--it is green colored plastic--never mind. I see the 2410 has metal fenders, hood, side panels, lever guides and a more comfortable properly BLACK seat with a tool box underneath.
J, /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
What kinda grease you use on the JD carb--is it synthetic?
Do JD's still have carbs? or do the new JD's have atomic powered fuel nucleorizers. Apparently someone at JD cannot add and subtract to achieve accurate specs.
You know what, the more this goes on the more commited to Kubota I become because there is just something about JD's always having to be the best that convinces me I do not even care. If Kubota was pink and had no hydrualics and a kangaroo powered cable operated loader it would still be better than a piece made JD as long as the Kangaroo was raised and trained by a Kubota Kangaroo specialist.
Are those fenders plastic--is that plastic on the JD made from US oil or imported oil?--is it refined into JDplastosis at a special US factory or imported from Mexico? Are the engineers all US born or are some imported? Do you think the Dino's where special JD plastic varieties that yield superior JD plastic or just common garden variety types?
Is the paint on the JD special US made paint or is it--oh wait--it is green colored plastic--never mind. I see the 2410 has metal fenders, hood, side panels, lever guides and a more comfortable properly BLACK seat with a tool box underneath.
J, /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Cowboy,
I have to modify your statement that:
"<font color=blue>
2. Loader lift capacity. The JD loaders have the highest lift capacities and breakout forces." </font color=blue>
In the "John Deere 4000 Series Tractors 20 to 48 Horsepower" sales literature it states,
" Loader Specifications.......420..........................430........................460
Breakout Capacity...........2693 lb.....................3299 lb...................3863 lb
Lift Capacity..................1195 lb......................1258 lb...................2325 lb
BUT in the "Grounds Care Equipment Purchasing Guide" which caters to professionals who make their living from the use of this equipment the story changes...
" Loader Specifications.......420.........................430........................460
Breakout Capacity...........<font color=red>2141 lb</font color=red>....................3299 lb.....................3863lb
Lift Capacity...........<font color=red>757 - 895* lb...................1045 lb.....................1705 lb </font color=red>
* 757lb with the 4200 tractor and 895lb with the 4300 tractor "
Both catalogs are 2001 vintage.
I'm not saying that Deere is any different in their marketing from NH or K, just that you really need to understand the wording. I'm sure BOTH sources are correct, I am assuming that in the one they include the weight of the bucket in the lift capacity and in the other they only list the load that can be lifted. (Personally, I want to know how much load I can lift /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)
John Bud
I have to modify your statement that:
"<font color=blue>
2. Loader lift capacity. The JD loaders have the highest lift capacities and breakout forces." </font color=blue>
In the "John Deere 4000 Series Tractors 20 to 48 Horsepower" sales literature it states,
" Loader Specifications.......420..........................430........................460
Breakout Capacity...........2693 lb.....................3299 lb...................3863 lb
Lift Capacity..................1195 lb......................1258 lb...................2325 lb
BUT in the "Grounds Care Equipment Purchasing Guide" which caters to professionals who make their living from the use of this equipment the story changes...
" Loader Specifications.......420.........................430........................460
Breakout Capacity...........<font color=red>2141 lb</font color=red>....................3299 lb.....................3863lb
Lift Capacity...........<font color=red>757 - 895* lb...................1045 lb.....................1705 lb </font color=red>
* 757lb with the 4200 tractor and 895lb with the 4300 tractor "
Both catalogs are 2001 vintage.
I'm not saying that Deere is any different in their marketing from NH or K, just that you really need to understand the wording. I'm sure BOTH sources are correct, I am assuming that in the one they include the weight of the bucket in the lift capacity and in the other they only list the load that can be lifted. (Personally, I want to know how much load I can lift /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)
John Bud
Hey guys, TheChamp here again. I went to the closest Kubota dealer on Saturday with my Dad to talk more "turkey", and see what he had to say about the JD Dealer claims on the Kubota. He pretty much addressed each one, but had to dig though a Kubota book most of the time for the answers. We compared many of the stats, as I had my JD Brochures in front of me as well. He pretty much just wanted to talk about Orange tractors which was what I expect from all the dealers. I also checked out the Boomerang Peddle, and other issues one of the JD guys was bashing. They didn't seem that bad to me, which makes me wonder why the JD guys would bash certain items, rather than saying "Check them out, this is what you might find, but only you will know." As for the safety issues - No dead-man stop, can start PTO when not on machine - The Kubota guy said, "yes, that's they way they are." My dad and I tested out a BX2200 with FEL, pushed some snow around, and such. I haven't seen an ear-to-ear-to-ear grin on my Dad since I don't know when! "We gotta get one of these for the cabin" he kept saying. (I'm trying to make a deal with him, I buy the tractor, and he can buy the trailer, if he wants to play, er, work, with it at the cabin). It is really a nice machine.
Next, we went over to another JD Dealer just to see if we could make it 3 for 3 in the "bashing" department. This JD Dealer basically just wanted to talk about Green, which is exactly why I go to a dealer, to find out about their product. The only "bashing" he did was on the safety (or lack of) features on the BX line. He told me "They can't even sell teh BX series in Nebraska because they won't pass the safety requirements there. People have to go out of state if they want to purchase a BX." (Anyone from Nebraska able to back up this claim?)
The biggest problem I find with JD is that none of them have any 4100's left. (obviously a great seller for them). The JD guy talked a little about the x400 and x500 series, but they don't seem to have any more information than everyone on this site. This dealer didn't think they would see any until June/2002. The JD guy said that it was a "high-end" garden tractor. He also talked a little about the 4010 tractor coming next year, but again, didn't have much information on them. He also admitted to me that JD didn't really have a direct competitor for the BX line or the smaller Boomer line from CNH. He said, basically, we have something just below (x4/5) and just above 4100/4010 lines, but nothing directly compared to the BX line. It was a nice, refreshing conversation with the JD guy, vs. the other ones who were just running down the competition.
I agree with earlier posts that it is really hard to objectively compare the statistics of the various tractors. Looks like it's time to start a spreadsheet for my comparisons. The only problem with me is that it will have about 600 columns to compare! But, on the bright side, it will have some many columns and numbers on it, that when I show it to my wife, she'll say, "That's nice dear, pick which ever one you will be happy with!". (and then, ask for a new Dining Room suite!)
Thanks again to everyone for posting to this thread. Even if it get's heated at times (and entertaining), it's all good information to use when going to the dealers. When you walk in quoting stats and information (1/2 of which is learned from this site), the dealers sit up and take notice. (For example, asking the Kubota dealer what the problem with the leaking BX fuel tanks is/was, and if/how it has been permanently fixed).
Finally, the Kubota closest to me dealer knows Woodstock (the same dealer where Woodstock purchased his BX200), and pulled out some information that he had printed up - I think from this site. So, you/we/TBN is getting good "airtime" out in the dealers as well. Good Job!
Next, we went over to another JD Dealer just to see if we could make it 3 for 3 in the "bashing" department. This JD Dealer basically just wanted to talk about Green, which is exactly why I go to a dealer, to find out about their product. The only "bashing" he did was on the safety (or lack of) features on the BX line. He told me "They can't even sell teh BX series in Nebraska because they won't pass the safety requirements there. People have to go out of state if they want to purchase a BX." (Anyone from Nebraska able to back up this claim?)
The biggest problem I find with JD is that none of them have any 4100's left. (obviously a great seller for them). The JD guy talked a little about the x400 and x500 series, but they don't seem to have any more information than everyone on this site. This dealer didn't think they would see any until June/2002. The JD guy said that it was a "high-end" garden tractor. He also talked a little about the 4010 tractor coming next year, but again, didn't have much information on them. He also admitted to me that JD didn't really have a direct competitor for the BX line or the smaller Boomer line from CNH. He said, basically, we have something just below (x4/5) and just above 4100/4010 lines, but nothing directly compared to the BX line. It was a nice, refreshing conversation with the JD guy, vs. the other ones who were just running down the competition.
I agree with earlier posts that it is really hard to objectively compare the statistics of the various tractors. Looks like it's time to start a spreadsheet for my comparisons. The only problem with me is that it will have about 600 columns to compare! But, on the bright side, it will have some many columns and numbers on it, that when I show it to my wife, she'll say, "That's nice dear, pick which ever one you will be happy with!". (and then, ask for a new Dining Room suite!)
Thanks again to everyone for posting to this thread. Even if it get's heated at times (and entertaining), it's all good information to use when going to the dealers. When you walk in quoting stats and information (1/2 of which is learned from this site), the dealers sit up and take notice. (For example, asking the Kubota dealer what the problem with the leaking BX fuel tanks is/was, and if/how it has been permanently fixed).
Finally, the Kubota closest to me dealer knows Woodstock (the same dealer where Woodstock purchased his BX200), and pulled out some information that he had printed up - I think from this site. So, you/we/TBN is getting good "airtime" out in the dealers as well. Good Job!
jfakerj
Silver Member
Trescrows
I think you're missing somethig here. If the 2410 is dual pump then how much is going to the steering and drive train and how much is going to the rest of the system. Part of that has to be powering the steering and power train. If you look at DFB's post you'll see that the 4100 has a charge pump also, which puts out a max. 4.2 gpm. If you add that to the 5.1 that's 9.3gpm. If the 4100 only had 5.1 total flow for everything I don't think it would even be able to move except maybe on level ground. Actually, both being hydrostat, I'm assuming that they're probably pretty close in the actual total hyd flow since their lifting capacity is close. Just what I was saying about the way the companies list things (and don't list things) in their specs and different ways they meassure these same things to make it look like their machine has the advantage over their competition. The guy that first said that #s don't lie lied.
DFB
I've got to ask you a question. We discussed in another forum hyd pressure verses flow with pressure = force and flow = speed. If that's true then shouldn't the 4100 (2418psi)be able to lift more than the 4200 (2125psi) since it has more hyd pressure. I must be missing something myself. I'm confused.
Jerry
I think you're missing somethig here. If the 2410 is dual pump then how much is going to the steering and drive train and how much is going to the rest of the system. Part of that has to be powering the steering and power train. If you look at DFB's post you'll see that the 4100 has a charge pump also, which puts out a max. 4.2 gpm. If you add that to the 5.1 that's 9.3gpm. If the 4100 only had 5.1 total flow for everything I don't think it would even be able to move except maybe on level ground. Actually, both being hydrostat, I'm assuming that they're probably pretty close in the actual total hyd flow since their lifting capacity is close. Just what I was saying about the way the companies list things (and don't list things) in their specs and different ways they meassure these same things to make it look like their machine has the advantage over their competition. The guy that first said that #s don't lie lied.
DFB
I've got to ask you a question. We discussed in another forum hyd pressure verses flow with pressure = force and flow = speed. If that's true then shouldn't the 4100 (2418psi)be able to lift more than the 4200 (2125psi) since it has more hyd pressure. I must be missing something myself. I'm confused.
Jerry
