Best tractor list

[Keith_B]

Bob S, I would consider some of the facts you stated are opinions, as they are highly debatable. One example is your statement that the bucket is "light". Light or heavy duty is basically an opinion expressed to represent an idea, whereas the fact would be in the gauge of the metal and other features of the bucket that are not open to being debatable.

Another example is in the photo where you said it would be impossible to exit and enter the operator's platform from the left side. That is opinion. A fact would be to say that there is 8 inches of space for entry/exit on the left side.

A non-tractor example would be something like tires. I've seen a lot of tires over the years advertised as heavy duty, but the ratings of those tires, which are the facts about the tire's duty characteristics are the true indication.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Bob S, I would consider some of the facts you stated are opinions, as they are highly debatable. One example is your statement that the bucket is "light". Light or heavy duty is basically an opinion

Keith, based on a past thread here, we had owners of virtually every brand of tractor come to a 'consensus' of how to define tractor buckets and this appears as a 'light duty' bucket by that previously agreed to definition. So within that context of what the majority of people agreed upon, this is, in "fact" not even remotely close to a H.D. bucket.

in the photo where you said it would be impossible to exit and enter the operator's platform from the left side. That is opinion. A fact would be to say that there is 8 inches of space for entry/exit on the left side.

Keith, feel free to go back and look at the photo again. It is my hand that is roughly 8" across, the opening between the fender and the loader is obviously far less than 8" and and the actual opening is probably much closer to 4" (look behind my hand and you will see the left size of the valve & hoses clearly are very close to the fender). If any adult human can squeeze through an opening of that size then I will gladly retract my statement of fact. Until then, I submit it is a prettly clearly established "fact" that this is a one-sided tractor.

 

[Keith_B]

Bob, it doesn't change the FACT that you were posting a lot of your opinions, even if those opinions are shared by many doesn't make them fact.

The reality is the concensus of what everyone posts as a being heavy duty, even with 100% agreement by TBNers, was still your translation of that concensus. I'm not saying the bucket was heavy duty, light duty, etc. What I'm saying is that facts and opinions are clearly different. Even if opinions are 100% accurate they remain opinions. A gauge of steel is fact, it is measurable and clearly defined, the terms light and heavy are opinions, as each individual has a different idea of what the terms equate to when looking at an item.

Your own words indicate that it was light duty based upon your opinion, as you said "this appears as a 'light duty' bucket by that previously agreed to definition."

The 8" measurement, 4" measurement, etc., would be a factual measurement, the opinion that one cannot access from the right side is an opinion based upon your estimated measurements. Since you have not lined up adults of enough sizes, shapes and dexterities to test the ability to enter that side of the tractor it is not correct to call it a fact, as it remains an opinion.

I tried out that make and model of tractor myself, and quickly eliminated it from consideration for a variety of reasons, and I am not in anyway arguing the merits of that machine. I am simply saying that many of the observations you made are subjective, and can vary by observer, making them clearly opinions, and not cold hard facts.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Keith, I respectfully submit that you are just being silly. I have now added you to my ignore list.

 

[dknarnd]

What I would find to be interesting would be a poll of TBN members indicating which make and model tractor they own. Potentially also a poll of implements.

This would have to be done as an actual poll so that only one vote per registered member (multiple tractors OK) can be placed. Instead of specific models maybe just manufacture and HP plus transmission. This would take some thought. Then with the results one could extrapolate all kinds of data from such a database. You may see different brands in different regions, 2WD or 4WD by region who knows!!!!

I for one would like to see such a poll.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

What I would find to be interesting would be a poll of TBN members indicating which make and model tractor they own. Potentially also a poll of implements. . .
I for one would like to see such a poll.

The software used by TBN (vBulletin) has the ability to post polls that allow for exactly what you wish. However, it appears that TBN has turned this feature off.

 

[weesa20]

what dknarnd stated above about the poll is essentially what I had planned...I was thinking, for one example, of a table of 20 HP SubCUTS and then everyone (who had any experience with a tractor or tractors in the table) would indicate what they thought the tractor's best task and/or attributes would be. It essentially would be a poll on every tractor that anyone cares about. That way, once I have defined my task list, I could start shopping by reviewing what someone else thought each tractor was good at and then narrow it down by other factors (of my choosing)

Instead of getting a hundred posts about "what tractor should I get" we could refer the member to the table as a place to start...

W

 

[KrumpsBrother]

Keith, I respectfully submit that you are just being silly. I have now added you to my ignore list.

It's silly to think that one would have to "bend over" to reach the 3 pt valve.

KB

 

[MossRoad]

Let's face it... there is no do-all be-all machine for all tasks. You have to research the tasks you need to do today, next year and in five years and see if you can come up with a machine that will do them within your time and money budgets. For us, it was a very large old, used tractor/loader to get the big jobs done fast in the first five years. Then we downsized to a smaller unit to do the mantenance tasks that we forsee in the next decade or two. While everyone's chores sound the same, in reality, everyone's chores are different, just as we are all different. So let's stop arguing about facts and opinions and just discuss the task at hand... how to choose a tractor that best fits your needs, not mine. I already got mine.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

It's silly to think that one would have to "bend over" to reach the 3 pt valve.

KB

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you!

That is why it is possible to identify "good" and "bad" design. But the fact is that to fully lower the 3pt on the 39hp tractor, the lever had such a long throw that when I had the seat pushed back (I have long legs) I had to lean forward in the seat to get it to the fully down position (I have average length arms). Compare that to a lever on another brand that has roughly 8" of travel and it located where it does not require you to shift your seating position to adjust the 3pt.

Or perhaps if we compare it to a car's ergonomics, why did manual transmissions move from "3 on the tree" to "4 on the floor" to the point where now the new state of the art is to have a clutchless "fingertip paddle" to change gears? Simple answer is that it is faster and more responsive.

One thing I have come to appreciate on my tractors is that one of them has levers with different shaped handles on the levers. So while my rear remote lever is next to my 4wd lever, the handle shape is different so if I am not looking at the lever because I'm looking backward at the hydraulic toplink to make sure it is set properly, I know by the feel/shape of the lever that I have the correct lever in my hand. It is "fact" that the levers are a different shape. It is my "opinion" that this is a good design. On another of my tractors the levers are the same shape but different colors. This is a nice looking feature, but I find that I often engage the levers by feel because I am watching the implement. It is "fact" that the levers on that tractor are of different colors. It is "opinion" that this design is not as good as different shaped levers. On another of my tractors the levers are the same shape, and same color. That is "fact." My "opinion" is that this is a poor design because is almost forces me to look at the levers to make sure I effect the correct one.

As "Iowachild" pointed out in an early post . . . the devil is in the details, but these little details can make a design "better" or "worse."

what dknarnd stated above about the poll is essentially what I had planned

The opinion poll feature that is in the vBulletin software package used here on TBN is not sophisticated enough to allow for a poll as complex as you are looking for. I suppose you could run serveral polls and tally the results? The poll featue allows for at least 10 choice, allows multiple answers, but will also block you from voting twice, so it is pretty powerful, but it does not allow for a complex matrix type poll like you would need.

there is no do-all be-all machine for all tasks. You have to research the tasks you need to do today, next year and in five years and see if you can come up with a machine

David that was my point of my first post in this thread. Tasks & Conditions dictate things. However, it is possible to objectively discuss "good or better" versus "bad or worse" design. I'm sure you recall the discussion we had on loader design. That thread was a very popular thread, it was contributed (with photos) by maybe a couple dozen people and the reality was that 98% of the people were very civil and objective. We agreed on definitions and then went forward from that point in a very constructive way. . . as this thread is titled the BEST TRACTOR LIST it would be hard to have a 'best' tractor if we could not discuss their features objectively.

 

[Keith_B]

It's silly to think that one would have to "bend over" to reach the 3 pt valve.

KB

KB, I tried out that model of tractor when I was shopping, and one does not have to bend over to reach the 3 pt valve, to raise and lower the 3PH. If you look at the pic it shows the 3PH valve lever is just below the edge of the seat when in the down position. The seat will lower as weight is put on it decreasing the distance. I've driven about every major brand of tractor there is and found it to be neither more nor less comfortable to operate the 3PH on this tractor than on all of the other brands.

What I have found is that each and every brand of tractors on the market has a following, and the reason is that each of the tractors has its strengths and weaknesses. When the individual buyer makes a purchase these strenghts and weaknesses are applied to the buyer's own unique circumstances, and a purchase decision is made. The unique circumstances that each buyer brings to the table makes a best tractor list impossible to compile. For example, I tried out many CUTs in the 40 HP range and found that a number of them would slide on the gravel in a midrange gear when I applied to the brakes. Since our farm has a lot of hills and slopes it wouldn't be good for me to select a model that wasn't heavy enough to maintain traction when stopping on a hill. On the flipside, someone concerned with leaving tracks in their yard would prefer the lighter weight those machines offered.

The one thing I discovered that surprised me the most is the number of quality machines that are on the market today.

 

[Soundguy]

On a lighter note...Hey Bob.. if that is the HD bucket.. I sure would hate to see the light duty one!!!.. Looks like those implements made for lawnmowers.. etc..

Soundguy

 

[Dargo]

The one thing I discovered that surprised me the most is the number of quality machines that are on the market today.

I realize that I have only been using tractors for about 30 years, but I'm quite shocked at some of the junk now offered. It seems that any group of investors can put up a few bucks and get a hodge podge of parts put together and call it a tractor. Some of the minor tractor manufacturers are only too happy to slap together their 2nds and private label them off as another brand rather than scrap the bad parts.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

 

[Soundguy]

Keith.. I think I see what Bob was talking about. At least in the pics, it appears to me that the 3pt control is even witht he front of the seat.. or is a tad forward of it... Now.. On ..well... every tractor I've ever driven, the 3pt lift quadrant was even witht he back of the seat.. and perhaps slightly lower...

Now add to this that Bob may have long legs.. meaning he has pushed the seat back for leg room. What this has done, since the 3pt controll is at the FRONT of the seat, is made it so that the long legged driver has to lean forward to pusht he 3pt controll all the way down, unless they have extra long arms... With the 3pt control at the rear of the seat.. there would have been no issues... the controll would still be withing 'arm distance' of the operator... perhaps right alongside of him.. but certaintly not forward of him..


Soundguy

KB, I tried out that model of tractor when I was shopping, and one does not have to bend over to reach the 3 pt valve, to raise and lower the 3PH. If you look at the pic it shows the 3PH valve lever is just below the edge of the seat when in the down position. The seat will lower as weight is put on it decreasing the distance. I've driven about every major brand of tractor there is and found it to be neither more nor less comfortable to operate the 3PH on this tractor than on all of the other brands.

What I have found is that each and every brand of tractors on the market has a following, and the reason is that each of the tractors has its strengths and weaknesses. When the individual buyer makes a purchase these strenghts and weaknesses are applied to the buyer's own unique circumstances, and a purchase decision is made. The unique circumstances that each buyer brings to the table makes a best tractor list impossible to compile. For example, I tried out many CUTs in the 40 HP range and found that a number of them would slide on the gravel in a midrange gear when I applied to the brakes. Since our farm has a lot of hills and slopes it wouldn't be good for me to select a model that wasn't heavy enough to maintain traction when stopping on a hill. On the flipside, someone concerned with leaving tracks in their yard would prefer the lighter weight those machines offered.

The one thing I discovered that surprised me the most is the number of quality machines that are on the market today.

 

[Soundguy]

Maybee he meant 'lack' of quality machines??

Soundguy

 

[Keith_B]

Soundguy, When I tried out the tractor I scooted the seat all the way back, as I like to maximize the legroom, still no problems with needing to bend forward. I've driven tractors where the 3PH control was farther forward, and farther rearward. I'm not very tall, so a taller person who in turn would have a longer reach would not have to bend forward to operate the 3PH lever.

The control for the remotes, is another story. For the life of me I cannot figure out why so many companies make the access to the controls for their remote valves so unhandy to access.

 

[GeneD14]

Keith.. I think I see what Bob was talking about. At least in the pics, it appears to me that the 3pt control is even witht he front of the seat.. or is a tad forward of it... Now.. On ..well... every tractor I've ever driven, the 3pt lift quadrant was even witht he back of the seat.. and perhaps slightly lower...

Now add to this that Bob may have long legs.. meaning he has pushed the seat back for leg room. What this has done, since the 3pt controll is at the FRONT of the seat, is made it so that the long legged driver has to lean forward to pusht he 3pt controll all the way down, unless they have extra long arms... With the 3pt control at the rear of the seat.. there would have been no issues... the controll would still be withing 'arm distance' of the operator... perhaps right alongside of him.. but certaintly not forward of him..


Soundguy

Having the 3 pt control near the lower front of the seat is a big dis-advantage in my opinion.
Most of the time when I am using the 3 point control to hook up an implement, lower the brush hog into the grass, or lower any other implement I am turned around looking back at the implement. If the lever is along side the seat: good. If the lever were in front or down low: bad

 

[Bob_Skurka]

What amazes me is that rather than pointing out other bits of good design or bad design found on tractors so that a thread about BEST TRACTORS can stay on topic, it seems like there is a lot of arguement over a simple observation about the (opinion) of the poor placement of the 3pt lever or the discussion of what constitutes a fact or an opinion. It would be nice to stay on topic rather than to pick apart posts and attempt to be contrary to the obvious.

.

Gene obviously understands how to use a tractor, as is illustated in his observation:

Most of the time when I am using the 3 point control to hook up an implement, lower the brush hog into the grass, or lower any other implement I am turned around looking back at the implement. If the lever is along side the seat: good. If the lever were in front or down low: bad

While some may feel they are be able to operate it under all conditions, GeneD14 and Soundguy certainly understand the observation and GeneD14 obviously understands why it is a poor (opinion) placement.

So to get onto the topic of BEST, let's consider the placement of the "cruise control" on some of the newer John Deere tractors. It is on the right fender and can be actuated with your thumb while your hand is on the 3pt lever. You don't have to take you eyes off the path of travel to find it, you can feel it. I have a dash mounted cruise control on one tractor and it is behind the steering wheel requiring a reach around, its a traditional location and not a bad one, but not as nice as the JD location. On another I have a mechanical cruise control and it is the worst of all I have seen.

if that is the HD bucket.. I sure would hate to see the light duty one!!!.. Looks like those implements made for lawnmowers.. etc..

That is my point, when you see a bad feature or design it is pretty obvious. That bucket is on what is supposed to be on a H.D. tractor based on what the sales guy told me. The top lip is a simple fold. It is completely unreinforced along the top. Compare that to some of the other brands buckets that have heavy wall square or round tubes welded full length for top rigidity. The bottom edge (not shown in the photos) was a simple cutting edge, but there was very little on the bottom to prevent wear through, compare that to the buckets that have several full depth wear/skid strips welded from the cutting edge to the back of the bucket.

 

[Keith_B]

I realize that I have only been using tractors for about 30 years, but I'm quite shocked at some of the junk now offered. It seems that any group of investors can put up a few bucks and get a hodge podge of parts put together and call it a tractor. Some of the minor tractor manufacturers are only too happy to slap together their 2nds and private label them off as another brand rather than scrap the bad parts.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Dargo, you only have a few years on me in the tractor usage, but there are a lot of quality machines out there, more than there were in the recent past. Mergers took away a number of the major brands that once dotted the landscape, but other companies have emerged in the last decade plus in this country that were not here previously.

My brother-in-law, who has been working tractors for around 45 years, just loves my Mahindra, and was really impressed with its capabilities, operation, etc.

A local dealer, who has been in business for decades, started carrying the McCormick brand. These machines, which are a recent import to the U.S., are a quality tractor, and are competing well with the major brands in my area.

Long tractors used to have a very bad rep, today under the Farmtrac badge the company is marketing some solid machines. The people that own them are pleased with the tractors, which are based on the old Fords.

Kioti tractors are high in quality and buyers are pleased with their purchases.

In addition to these new guys on the block we are seeing far more models to select from among the companies with a more established US presence. We are seeing many companies come up with value priced versions in order to compete in the market. It hasn't been that long since there weren't any real model variances within a brand, only differences established by options.

In regards to longevity Kubota is still a new guy on the block, as they haven't been in the U.S. for that long when compared to Deere, Case/NH, & Massey. As Kubota and the auto industry have show us it doesn't take as long to establish a US market as one would think.

There are also some people/groups who are importing machines from China, slapping a label on them and selling them as their own. These are not manufacturers, but importers. These tractors have a bad rep, and from all appearances it is at the very least somewhat deserved.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I realize that I have only been using tractors for about 30 years, but I'm quite shocked at some of the junk now offered. It seems that any group of investors can put up a few bucks and get a hodge podge of parts put together and call it a tractor. Some of the minor tractor manufacturers are only too happy to slap together their 2nds and private label them off as another brand rather than scrap the bad parts.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Looks like we both share the same opinion on this issue.

I've owned tractors of my own for over 35 years. Before that, I grew up on dads. Most of what I'm familiar with have been what everyone refers to now as an "AG tractor" Before Compacts, they were just simply "tractors". Back then, junk just didn't sell. Since MOST tractors were sold to farmers who depended on them for a livelyhood, the market was for quality, longevity, and ease of operation.

Compact tractors are relative newcomers. They are ALMOST a different species. From all I've seen, they are still in the teething stage. (Even the best of them) It's not fair to compare them to farm tractors of the 1930's and 40's, but todays compacts will seem very crude in a few years. My personal opinion is, you're just begining to see compacts of a quality to match their high price. (And ONLY from a few brands)

And then there's those "bargain basement tractors". I'd take an old tractor from the 1930's over some of them. Obviously, today you can sell about anything if the price is low enough. To me, these things aren't even tractors. Just because it smells like a rose, it isn't always a rose.

Last winter, I started looking at buying a new compact. Something in the 40 to 45 HP range. For the price I'd had to pay, I didn't see much that was worth what I went through to earn that money. What I saw, IS better than what I saw just a few years back.

As the "AG tractor" evolved, the also-rans fell off the edge of the earth. I'd bet the ranch that'll happen with some of these 3rd world bargain brands in due time.

The cream always rises to the top.